Marketing Experts Reveal Top Strategies To

Arlen
[00:00:57]
Welcome to the e-commerce marketing podcast. Everyone I am your host Arlen Robinson. And today we have a very special guest Michael Lisovetsky who is co-founder of JUICE, an integrated digital marketing agency. Lisovetsky started his first company at the age of 14, and has since founded, advised, and sold various businesses. He applies that first-hand experience to his work at JUICE, helping to build and grow brands through efficient campaigns that drive results.  

Prior to founding JUICE, Lisovetsky was the Director of Growth at Common, the leading co-living company, and former founder of Skylight, a Tinder for apartments. He raised $500k in funding for Skylight from Tim Draper (investor in SpaceX, Tesla, Hotmail), Marc Benioff (Founder & CEO, Salesforce), and Great Oaks VC. Skylight was acquired by Common in 2017. Lisovetsky also holds a BS in finance from NYU Stern and is one of the general partners of Magic Fund, a VC firm dedicated to founders backing founders. Welcome to the podcast. Michael,

Michael
[00:02:06]
Thanks, darling. Thanks for having me.

Arlen
[00:02:08]
Yes, no problem. Thank you for joining us. And that’s quite a resume that you have there and, you know, so it says that you started your first company and at the age of 14, I mean, you have to tell me a little bit about that. What really was that?

Michael
[00:02:22]
Yeah, I mean, that was a ton of fun. It was a what web hosting company. So it’s kind of like imagine GoDaddy. Yep. But one, 1000th one, 100000th of what it was. It was a tiny, tiny web hosting company. I didn’t really know it was a company at the time. I was just kind of, I saw someone on a forum, they started selling web hosting. I was like, I wanna sell web hosting. So I just did it. And it was working and people were sending me money and my parents were concerned and I went, went through that whole RGA rule.

Arlen
[00:02:49]
Right.

Michael
[00:02:49]
But yeah, it was cool. It was, it was before clouds were a thing. So it was something called share hosting and interesting experience.

Arlen
[00:02:55]
Okay. That’s cool. Cool man. Yeah. And yeah, definitely looks like that kind of from that venture, I’m sure that kind of, springboarded your got your entrepreneurial juices flow and then I know you went off to, to various ventures from there, you know, as I read in your, your intro sounds like you’ve kind of rubbed elbows with a lot of the, the movers and shakers in the tech space, from the investing side to kind of have people that have had their hands and some of the, you know, the leading companies that are out here today, which is good, good stuff. Well, you know, today I’m really excited to talk to you because we’re gonna be kind of diving deep into a subject. We’ve covered a few times on the podcast, but it’s ever changing. And that has to deal with, you know, managing successfully managing paid advertising campaigns because these days there are a ton of options.

Arlen
[00:03:47]
You know, there are more and more advertising channels that are popping up via the social media side via just unique niche websites that give businesses and specifically e-commerce businesses, the app opportunity to really get out there and then successfully get these campaigns out there. And these manage these CA paid campaigns. So that’s really what we’re gonna be talking about today. But before we get into that, I really want was curious as far as what you do there at juice and some of the, the ins and outs of your kind of your day to day activities with the businesses that you deal with. Sure.

Michael
[00:04:24]
So with juice, we, so my Troy and I started it, I think it was almost four years ago now. Okay. We just, oh yeah. We, we actually just crossed the four year anniversary.

Arlen
[00:04:32]
Okay. Congratulations.

Michael
[00:04:33]
We started four years ago. Thank you. Thank you. And what we realized is that he and I were both at previous firms and we’d hire agencies and we were kind of rocking our brains around why that those experiences just weren’t great. And we, we spoke to our friends and our friends were like, yeah, everyone kind of, kind of hates their agency. So it was just this problem. And we couldn’t really understand why it had to be that way. There was a clear need. There was a clear need in the market. Folks like needed help on their advertising marketing, whether it was on the paid side, organic side. So we really partnered up to try to figure that out. And what juice does now is the full service digital marketing agency. So any way that someone is trying to reach a consumer, so we specifically specialize in consumer, we help them do it. So if they want to use Facebook ads or Instagram ads or Google ads, or let’s say it’s SEO or email, whatever the need is in terms of a, a, a digital marketing channel or, or activation, we can help them do it. Okay. Recently we’ve been doing some interesting influencer campaigns. So really the question we’re asking is what’s the most effective and the most efficient way to reach a, a customer on behalf of a brand. And how do we do that? How do we help the brand do that?

Arlen
[00:05:38]
Gotcha, gotcha. That’s some good stuff. And I think it’s agents sees companies like yours that are needed more than ever these days, because it’s difficult. Water’s kind of navigating this ad space, this digital marketing world that we’re in right now. I had a person on the podcast about a couple months ago, and she had an interesting analogy, which, which really made a lot of sense because a lot of times, because these platforms are set up in such a way that, you know, the onboarding process is, is pretty simple to get a Google ads account, to set up Facebook ads, you can get in there popping your credit card, set up. Campaigns is just a few minutes. You know, they make it easy, of course, because they’re trying to maximize the amount of customers and, and people that are utilizing their platform. So obviously they make it easy.

Arlen
[00:06:26]
But the analogy, the person that was on the podcast was saying is that, would you get a, let’s see, would you get a flight attendant to try to fly a 7 47 or one of these jumbo? Aircrafts if you had an option to get an actual, real license pilot. And obviously answer that question is, of course not, unless you wanted to live, if you do this. Yeah. No way. Yeah. So of course you wouldn’t do that. And so the same thing really does apply to this whole paid ad a is definitely something, you know, you could do, you could get in there, jump in there and, you know, set up some hands yourself, but to really be successful and to really thrive and to really live in the example that I gave. Yeah. You wanna go with a, an agency such as yours that can help you, you know, navigate these difficult waters. And so you really, what I wanna start off with is, you know, for an e-commerce brand these days, how do they really specifically know what paid campaigns paid ad campaigns are right for them and what really social media platforms should they target? Because there’s, there’s so many, and I think that’s really where you want us start at. What, how do you determine what’s right for your business?

Michael
[00:07:42]
Sure. The most important and, or kind of the initial question that you ask is, is there intent, so meaning are folks actually seeking out what you’re offering or are you trying to more open them up to it, make them aware of it and kind of put it in front of them and then try to tempt them with an offer. So you can think of, for a example on Google, when someone goes and Google something like there’s a lot of intent, someone intended to sit down and type in that term and then seek it out. So the offers, there are very, very targeted, very specific. It’s like a sniper, like you’re just, there’s a very specific target you’re going at it. Whereas on Facebook, what you’re looking for is, is who seems like the right person, like let’s back into who’s the right person, it’s an age range or gender, or in there used to be income levels, but depending on what the factors are like, what do they like? And then how do we reach those folks and what kind of compelling message can you put in front of them that would make them interested or make them explore further.

Arlen
[00:08:34]
Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. Makes sense. Because it’s really, there really is no one fits all when it comes to these different platforms, there’s nothing that’s going to be the hundred percent right. Answer for every particular brand. And a lot of it, like you said, has, it has to really be based on, you know, the intent and what are the, is the particular type of customer that you’re trying to reach. I know a lot of times, you know, I’ve had discussions with others before and they say that, you know, really before you kind of cast your net, so to speak and try to get out there in the deep, you wanna really determine really who, you know, who the target customer is. Of course you wanna really ice slate that ideal customer avatar or that customer profile so you can, can figure out, all right. You know, does this particular type of customer, is there a high percentage of this type of customer on, you know, this particular platform and this particular community or this particular, you know, social network. So I think, yeah, that is very important. Cause otherwise, you know, you could be in an area you could be trying to get, you know, go deep, but you’re not gonna really get the, the right results.

Michael
[00:09:42]
Exactly. I mean, if you don’t really know who you’re targeting, then you’re not really targeting anybody.

Arlen
[00:09:46]
Yeah.

Michael
[00:09:46]
Yeah. So the CU customer persona is the first step it’s understanding. Who are you providing value for? Who is the person that you’re serving effectively, your brand, your, your product offering, who are you serving and then how do you best serve them? How do you be, how do you best reach them? Yeah. How do you best make them aware that you’re actually the most, most qualified or the best opportunity they have?

Arlen
[01:10:06]
Definitely. Now another question that I think comes up a lot, kind of within this same kind of starting point, if you will, is let’s say for a startup brand, a startup e-commerce brand fresh out of the gate, maybe they don’t have any customers or maybe they only have a few and they’re just trying to figure it out, but they want to get into paid ads. If a company is really right at the, the starting point and they don’t really have, you know, really any customers and really kind of a track record or proof of P people that are using it, how do they really determine which route to go? Because at that point, you know, they don’t really know, all right. You know, they have an idea of course, of the demographics of their based on their products or their services or concern, but they don’t have, you know, a kind of a track record of customers that have purchased it, you know, at that point, what should they do? What would you reckon in

Michael
[01:10:58]
A lot of times brands like nowadays the let’s take a step back nowadays. The landscape for paid has changed a lot, but specifically within paid, it’s become a lot more competitive and a lot more difficult. So there are brands like we see brands launch and out of the gate, they see success. But unfortunately we see a lot of brands that outta the gate, like if they’re starting to from zero, they’re having a tough time because a lot of the questions that need to be answered, haven’t been answered yet. And so some of those questions are the website set up for success. Is it set up in a way that, that conveys the most obvious answer where it’s compelling and somebody wants to buy because if you’re spending money and the website’s not really set up to be compelling, then you’re not gonna benefit from spending that money.

Michael
[01:11:41]
So a lot of times I advise brands think about like who, who would be a good organic starting point if that’s possible, it’s not always possible. And there are brands that like, they find paid to be the most efficient way to reach who exactly who they wanna reach. But in the case that they can take a step back, identify maybe there are some Facebook groups that you can reach. Maybe there are a couple email lists. Maybe you can target a couple people specifically and start with feedback. So if it’s definitely from zero, it’s a little bit tougher. Now, if you’re, if, if you run a little bit of traffic or you’re getting some organic sales or there’s some kind of community that’s striving that it’s a lot easier, but at that point you have the confidence to go. You can invest the money and you know, that it’s very likely at the minimum, at least retargeting is gonna pay off for

Arlen
[01:12:23]
You. Makes a lot of sense. And I, I, I like what you mentioned as far as if you have a community kind of ahead of your launch, or maybe you’ve even established the, you said a Facebook, because those are pretty big these days where you’re, you’re able to kind of communicate with who you think is your ideal potential customer, bounce things off of them run different messaging ideas, see how receptive they are. So, you know, all of those things can definitely be done prior to launching the business and launching your brand and, you know, with, to patient that at some point you’re about to launch, and then you can kind of test the waters with, you know, what these people are saying in the different communities. And so, yeah, it definitely is something that you can do so that when you do launch you don’t waste time and money, you know, advertising in the wrong areas. So I think that’s, that’s very important. Now the bottom line is with most ads, the main thing that businesses are looking for is the revenue. They want these things to be profitable. Yeah, absolutely. They want, they want the sales and they don’t wanna waste money. And so they

Michael
[01:13:27]
Should.

Arlen
[01:13:28]
Yeah. And so what are some quick dos and don’ts when it comes to creating profitable paid ad can campaigns.

Michael
[01:13:36]
I, I wanna make sure that what I say is actually like really helpful, cause like, I don’t think that that like just high level cliches can always help. Sure. But in terms of don’t, don’t be too broad in your messaging. So nowadays like when, when Facebook first started, so when I was running, I think it was like 20 14, 20, no, 2013 is when I started running Facebook ads. Yeah. I came, I believe it’s almost what 9, 8, 9 years. But the platform back then was benefited from you being really specific. So the more that you would insert interests and other elements to help the algorithm really, really, really find exactly who you’re looking for. It benefited nowadays, the algorithm actually does better when you go abroad. So you, you wouldn’t put a couple of parameters. You give it a couple of like, you know, some specificity, but you really give it room to go and find out what you’re doing so face.

Michael
[01:14:22]
So for example, on the Facebook and Instagram side, you just wanna make sure that your messaging is really specific. So your headline, your copy, your creative is really specific if possible. You definitely want to use videos over static images because the platform is designed to reward ad creatives that are in a video format. Okay. So it’s really, it’s like the way you think of it is how do you set up the ad for success? And what is the role of the ad? Really the role of the ad is to get the relevant person to take whatever the next step is. And the next step could be fill out a lead form. The next step could be click and go on a website. Like the ad is really not designed to sell your product. Could you use an ad to try to sell your product? Absolutely.

Michael
[01:15:04]
But really the role of that ad just like the role of a subject line is to get someone to open the email, the role of the ad is to get them to click. So the primary metric is what is the click through rate amongst a relevant audience? Another thing another really key component that some folks get tripped up on is the conversion event. So for example, if you’re trying to drive sales, you really need to make sure that that purchase is indicated as a conversion event. Now that’s because Facebook understands the premise of a purchase. Facebook understands the premise of exactly the conversion rate that you’re thinking. So Facebook will reward whatever you’re asking of it. So what that means is let’s say you hit traffic. Facebook will do an amazing, incredible job and driving traffic to your website, but not necessarily sales. And let’s say you’re, you’re indicating purchase. Like you’re probably gonna get clicks, but the idea is that those clicks are gonna be qualified and they might cost more. But again, you’re, you’re paying a premium because Facebook knows that those folks have gone out and have purchased before.

Arlen
[01:16:04]
Okay. So, gotcha. Yeah. It, so it’s like, I see what you’re saying. It’s things are a little bit different right now and, and I’ve seen this trend like you, you may and Facebook where initially yeah, you can be broad in it because you’re, you’re not really quite sure where the target is really gonna totally be. And you want to try to compile as much initial data as you can before being more specific with the ad. And I, I like what you said as far as really the purpose of the ad is really getting people to, just to take the next step. You know, I think unfortunately a lot of businesses don’t necessarily see it like that. Their old goal is of course, to get the sale, which is understandable and focusing so much on, all right, what can I do in this ad to get people to go through to the website, to buy. And a lot of times I’ve seen this, you know, time and time and again, where there’s almost too much there, they’re kind of like, I guess you could say overselling at that initial point. And really all they need to do is focus on what you said, getting people to go to that the next point and take that next step. Whether it’s maybe an opt-in that you have, whether it’s maybe getting them, you know, watch a video, what, whatever it is.

Michael
[01:17:13]
Exactly. So people are trying to drive leads. Some people are trying to drive sales, but at the end of the day, of course, of course that’s what you want, but you have to think about how do you work backwards from that goal? And you have to treat each tool as a kind of what the tool is within that respect. So what I mean by that, like the purpose of Facebook is not to sell your products. It’s to put your message in front, the right person. Yeah. It’s like, how do you maximize that? And then on, on your website and on your landing pages, those are there to sell your product and your photography and your copy and your creative. So it’s like, how do you ensure that every part of the process is set up for success and it’s with, with what it’s supposed to be doing?

Arlen
[01:17:51]
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And I think the main thing is just not overthinking and not taking it too far ahead when you’re dealing with just the ad, because like you said, selling your product, selling your services, the, the purpose of that, or, you know, what you do for that is what it’s on your website. So then once you get people to go to of the website, then start thinking about, okay, what does the initial landing page look like? What do I do to ensure that they stay on the site longer, that they go to where I want them to go and, you know, think about that separately. So that’s kind of like a whole separate flow once they’re at your

Michael
[01:18:26]
Site. Exactly.

Arle
[01:18:28]
Now, because as there’s, you know, like I said, all of these different tools, there’s so many options to manage, to get out there. You know, I’m a huge advocate on using the right tools to make your, our lives a lot easier. What do you feel are some tools that you guys have used internally that you just know about overall that can help an e-commerce business, you know, successfully manage paid ads that are probably across a variety of different platforms all at once?

Michael
[01:18:54]
I think as an individual, when I was doing this many moons ago, I was using a espresso.

Arlen
[01:18:58]
Okay.

Michael
[01:18:59]
And I really enjoyed espresso. It was like just simplified my workflow. Just the UI was a lot simpler for me. And it was great. I don’t know how it is and I haven’t used it in a while, but it was a great tool, otherwise tend to stick to the platforms. So I, I don’t know if we don’t have any specific tools. Like there are some niche cases where some folks will want additional support on attribution, for example, and a tool that that’s created attribution is called wicked reports, right. Or there’s a tool let’s say for creative testing. This is for brands that are typically spending more at right scale. But there’s a tool called Mar pipe. That does a pretty good job. Okay. Let’s say brands need some help copywriting. So there’s a tool called copy.ai, great tool, super cool. You can sign up and it, it uses AI to help, help you write copy. There are like these small tools, but at the end of the day, the, the platforms tend to be still the best way to operate.

Arlen
[01:19:50]
Yeah. And that’s, that’s what I’ve seen because most of these platforms, they really there’s a lot that really is into it, that they put into it. A lot of little tools, a lot of resources that cause you know, their goal is to keep you there. So they gotta try and yeah,

Michael
[02:20:02]
Exactly.

Arlen
[02:20:03]
Provide as much as they can for you to be able to stay there, continually get these ads together and fund these ads. So makes sense. One of the things though that has come up a lot lately are these tools that are like, I guess you could say kind of dashboard type tools where they don’t necessarily tie into these platforms as far as letting you manage the functionality, but they allow you at kind of a quick glance to view your ads and reports all from like one interface. Because I think it’s the kind of a common complaint that I hear from a lot of businesses where they’re like, you know, I got all of these ads, I got Facebook, I’m doing stuff on Instagram, LinkedIn, all of these other social platform. So, you know, I, I gotta remember to go in, check my reports, check the stats on all of these different platforms where it would be easier to just kind of view in a dashboard. And I know there’s some tools out there that allow you to kind of see everything at once. What’s your take on that? Have you, do you have any experience with any tools like that?

Michael
[02:20:59]
Yeah. We tend to go a more, I would say convoluted route, which is a, a custom dashboard and Google data studio.

Arlen
[02:21:06]
Oh,

Michael
[02:21:06]
Okay. Which you can find you Google, Google data studio paid template, you can find three templates and it doesn’t have to be as complicated, but there are some tools like report garden. Yeah. Those are the ones that come to mind. There’s one called reveal bot, which is cool. There are a bunch of tools cropping up, but reporting actually is definitely not still an opportunity.

Arlen
[02:21:26]
Yeah.

Michael
[02:21:26]
Because no, one’s quite simplified that down. Yeah. Like even us, like we had to spin up a data warehouse and it’s just, there’s a lot of complexity that we didn’t anticipate.

Arlen
[02:21:36]
Yeah. It’s difficult with reporting and I’m also familiar with Google data studio and it’s, it’s definitely something that’s pretty easy to, to set up and manage and you can have a, a fair amount of customization that you can do with, with it. So you can have stuff displayed kind of how you want it, how you want it to look. That’s also a, a really good option, but native reporting tools can be, it’s tough. It’s tough, you know, to find something that really meets the needs of a lot of, a lot of people, for sure. Well, get ready to, to wrap things up. I wanted to see if you could maybe highlight examples of some businesses that you either worked with in your company or that you’re just familiar with in general, that have managed revenue generating paid ad campaigns and you know, specifically what did they do to really be successful with them?

Michael
[02:22:26]
Yeah. That’s a great question. There’s this one client that comes to mind, but I think it’s more of the story. Like the client itself is not that relevant, but they were having a lot of trouble with paid ads. And actually I think that this story kind of this lesson spans across that they were having trouble with paid ads and they tweaked their business model and everything just started working. So they were, there was a business that depended on appointments and they had like massive no-show issue where they were driving, paid social and they were driving appointments. And I, they were very hesitant, but I was able to convince them to add like a deposit to the appointments and their no-show rate plummeted to like 5%.

Arlen
[02:23:04]
Okay. Gotcha. So

Michael
[02:23:06]
The takeaway there is sometimes it’s not the channel, it’s the, but it’s not just the funnel. It’s how do they all marry together? How are they all linked? So you really, you have to take a step back because like some, you know, you could have looked at that. You could have said, Hey, the folks that were signing up were not the best folks who were not reaching the right audience or there’s something there, but there were greater elements and there’s, there were greater psychological drivers at play or people weren’t bought into the appointment. So there was like, there was no repercussion for not showing up. They wanted to, they signed up, they genuinely wanted the offer, but they life happens. But when you pay for it, you’re much more inclined to show up. Even if it’s refundable, you’ll you’ll show up. So there are these little nuances where I feel like we’ve had the most success where we’ve taken like a step back and multiple steps back.

Michael
[02:23:53]
And we’ve really looked at the business holistically and we’re like, okay, so what’s working and what’s not. And what can we tweak to try to get it to a better place? I see. Or sometimes it’s business models. So sometimes it will is how do we give out samples or do so in a way that that would benefit the business and not hurt it, or like is the best use of paid traffic to give out samples or sell the product. Sometimes if it’s a hard product you wanna actually get, like, for example, fragrance or something, that’s a little more personal that requires a personal touch that’s in person, really like a primary driver of paid social in that case is like, how do you get the fragrance? How do you get the samples and the hands of the right people? Or I remember a really good example was a quest bar, which is a massive nutrition company. And then when they were just starting out, their whole model was if you went and you paid for shipping, you get a sample of each, each of their flavors and it just blew up. And it was like this massive thing you could say, like a part of their success is that they got creative and that was their offer. And it worked okay.

Arlen
[02:24:51]
Okay.

Michael
[02:24:51]
And it was a big risk because they sent out all these samples and you don’t know, but it worked. So I would say business owners should just consider these things, consider the factors, consider really the whole thing and how every single component fits in.

Arlen
[02:25:03]
Yeah. Yeah. That’s very true because it’s small, more than just the platform. A lot of times I think businesses get stuck on, oh, okay. You know, I’m not getting the right results. Maybe this is just not the platform for me. I’m gonna try something else. I’m gonna no longer do Facebook. I’m gonna try another platform, but that it may not have been the platform the whole time. It just could have been, you know, something else, another factor, like you said, in your example with the, the company that was getting the point, a simple fact of taking the deposit, you skyrocketed their appointments up there. So you do have to look at, look at everything and don’t necessarily be so quick to blame the platform. And you know, maybe thinking that it’s not the right platform or not the right, the demographic on that platform, which is the reason why you’re not getting the right results.

Arlen
[02:25:45]
So yeah. Looking at everything. Yeah. Just being very, really creative creativity is definitely the key here. Well, Michael, it, it has been awesome talking to you. I’ve definitely learned a lot with regards to paid ads. Hopefully our listeners and our viewers have as well. And you know, before we let you go, I always like to switch gears just so our audience can get to know you just a little bit better. If you don’t mind sharing one closing fun fact about, about yourself that you think our listeners and viewers would be interested to know about you.

Michael
[02:26:13]
Oh man. Fun fact question always gets me. But I think the fun fact is as I speak fluent, Russian, just kind of random, even though I was born here, but yeah, I was born. I got lucky. I was born just a couple months after my parents came here. Okay. From what was as a, a former Soviet union. And it kind of gave me this, this cool skillset where I can speak Russian and now I have a team there too, and super helpful.

Arlen
[02:26:37]
That’s good stuff, man. Yeah, definitely. You know, being, you know, multilingual is, is always a good thing, especially in our world today, you know, cause everything is so kind of global and you know, being able to have that under your belt is good. I’m, I’m sure that of course helped you helps a lot. Yeah, definitely. I’m sure. You know, traveling and then establishing more ties back there, you know, has helped a lot. So great. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. And you know, lastly, before we let you go, if any of our listeners wanna reach out to you and pick your brain anymore about paid ads or digital marketing in general, what, what’s the best way for them to reach you?

Michael
[02:27:11]
Sure, please. My [email protected] on Twitter. It’s L I O and then on Instagram. It’s Mike. Lisa.

Arlen
[02:27:19]
Okay. Sounds great. Well, Leah definitely encourage our listeners to reach out to you. That’s a great domain there. Thank juice.com. We’re ready to, to connect with you guys and to, you know, to see how you guys can help out in, you know, any eCommerce business that you needs a little help these days. Well, Michael, it’s been awesome talking to you. I definitely appreciate you coming on today on the eCommerce marketing podcast.

Michael
[02:27:41]
Thanks.

speaker 1
[02:27:44]
Thank you for listening to the e-commerce marketing podcast. 

Podcast Guest Info

Michael Lisovetsky
Co-founder of JUICE