Marketing Experts Reveal Top Strategies To

Arlen
[00:00:42]
Welcome everyone to the eCommerce marketing podcast. I am your host Arlen Robinson. And today we have a very special guest. He is one of the most highly regarded independent consultants in his industry. Kurt Elster is a senior e-commerce consultant who helps Shopify store owners uncover hidden profits in their websites. Kurt is the founder of e-commerce agency ether cycle host of the popular e-commerce hacks weekly video series, author of e-commerce bootcamp and host of the unofficial Shopify podcast. These resources have helped thousands of Shopify store owners create impact freedom and wealth. Welcome to the podcast. Kurt, we appreciate you joining us. How you, how are you doing today?

Kurt
[00:01:32]
I’m good. Thanks for having me.

Arlen
[00:01:33]
Yeah, not a problem. Yeah, you’ve got a pretty diverse background and, you know, but kind of before we get into the topic of the day, which by the way, we’re gonna be talking about user interface and conversion rate optimization and how to boost boost your return on advertising spend. But before we get into all of that, why don’t you tell me a little bit about how you got going, what you were doing before you were got started at the agency you’re at right now and you know, a little bit about yourself?

Kurt
[00:02:00]
Sure. Well, I suppose I, I never intended to be involved with e-commerce, but it, it just kept choosing me over and over. Starting in, in college, I was selling stuff outta my dorm room on eBay and like twice just running a fel of, of eBay’s regulations, because I knew so little, I didn’t even know I was doing selling essentially like unlicensed, counterfeit goods had no idea. Okay. And then after that ended up as a e-commerce channel manager for a local aftermarket auto parts drop Shipp. Okay. And that was just really, because I had, you know, business experience, new cars and had this eBay experience. And I, you know, after doing that job for a while, I thought that, you know, I, I still had that strong entrepreneurial bug. I couldn’t work for someone else. It felt wrong. It felt like a betraying myself. So I quit with no plan.

Kurt
[00:02:53]
And then kind of not knowing what I didn’t know, said, you know, what I’ll make my own e-commerce platform. And I was gonna do a e-commerce platform exclusively for bike shops. And that turned out to be way harder than I thought. So I ended up to keep the lights on. We started doing development. Okay. WordPress websites for local businesses, and then climb the ladder. Pretty soon we were doing development work for big agencies. So working on stuff for Verizon, the NFL Hilton hotels. And at the same time we were doing e-commerce work for local businesses. And that was the stuff we really liked. Okay. Because design wasn’t subjective there. It was tied to value as really, instead of having a conversation like, well, my dog doesn’t like blue, so we can’t use blue. And you’re like, oh God, with e-commerce it’s very much like, all right, this is the design we’re gonna go with, cuz this is what’s gonna make you money.

Kurt
[00:03:38]
Right. And that was just such a relief from dealing with like traditional design. That’s not tied to anything. And the, so I said, why are we messing with any of this other stuff? Let’s just do e-commerce. And then within that, we tried, you know, worked on a bunch e-commerce platforms and said, gee, when we finished this Shopify projects, we always go, that was easy. Okay. What was it that it was easy is that we were good at it. Okay. And it was the, it was the right platform for us. So I said, all right, let’s, let’s just stick with that. Let’s do only that. And having that clear focus and positioning was like the best thing, best decision we made.

Arlen
[00:04:08]
Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. That, that’s awesome. Yeah. A lot of the guests that I have on, it’s always interesting to see people’s background and how they kind of get to where they’re at today. And so your experience with e-commerce early on, like you said, dabbling with the eBay and you know, like you said, selling unlicensed good. And then, you know, getting to where you’re at, it’s always interesting to see where people have come from. And you know, so for today, as I was mentioning at the beginning, we’re gonna give us some insight on the user interface and conversion rate optimization, how to use that and optimize those things to, to boost a return on your advertising span, which is a, a very great topic. Good question. Because you know, here at OmniSTAR we talk to e-commerce stores all day and we’re, you know, everybody’s looking to, to maximize the return on their advertising spend and that’s the bottom line. And so, you know, where would a merchant start when making conversion rate optimization improvements with regards to their shopping cart, product detail pages, or even category pages. And, you know, before you get into that, what you can let, let our audience know a little bit about exactly what conversion rate optimization really is.

Kurt
[00:05:19]
Sure. So conversion rate optimization is taking well, you know, what your conversion rate is, you got the percentage of people who visit the site and what percentage of people visit this? I buy, right? That’s our conversion rate. Right. But if you break that in the ideas to, well, let’s make, let’s make all of our changes with that number in mind, how do we move the needle on that number? And so we’re not gonna do things, you know, I said like my dog doesn’t like blue, so we can’t use blue. No. Instead of doing stuff really kind of arbitrarily like that, we’re gonna do take this data driven approach where all we care about is moving that number. Right. That’s our, our big key performance indicator in our business. And that if you have committed to that idea, okay, cool. Now you are, you’ve taken the first step into data driven design, which is great because it eliminates a lot of this, a lot of this back and forth and like, well, what should this look like?

Kurt
[00:06:11]
Doesn’t matter. Just go try it, see what it does, see what it does for your, your numbers, your key performance indicators. And to your point, if you have the higher, you can get that conversion rate, the higher, your return on investment on your marketing spend is gonna be. So if I know it costs me, you know, if I, my budget for Facebook ads is, is $10,000 a month and I can double my conversion rate. Well now suddenly I have, I have doubled the ROI of my, my ad spend. So that’s, that’s why we, you wanna be thinking in those terms.

Arlen
[00:06:40]
Gotcha. Gotcha. You know, I know a lot of the listeners out there have various shopping carts like Shopify. I know you guys are of course, Shopify consultants. And, you know, they’re, they’re, they’re wondering a lot of the listeners and people that I deal with on a day to day basis typically use the built in templates with either Shopify or whatever shopping cart they use. They make some tweaks. I I’ve have a few customers that have, you know, done some custom things, but a lot of people use the standard designs. And so, you know, with that in mind, you know, really what, what are some of the basic changes somebody could make to try to optimize their return on investments with regards to just a, a basic theme.

Kurt
[00:07:24]
So I’d love using those, those out of the box themes. Cause really it’s like people look down their nose at them cuz it’s like, well, I only spent 150 bucks on this theme that everybody has, where I could have spent $30,000 on a custom theme. And it would be exactly what I want and perfect for me. Yeah. But the premium themes have to be built to handle hundreds or thousands of stores. And they’re all special snowflakes. They’re all little different. So the themes often have tons of stuff thought through in settings that you wouldn’t have in a custom theme. So actually I I’m a big proponent of those, those premium themes. Okay. And especially if they, most people benefit absolutely benefit from starting with it. And only if you can’t achieve something or you really need this very specific branding, then jump to the custom theme.

Kurt
[00:08:07]
But going back to that, that data driven approach, I say, look at your, your conversion funnel, right? So like the conversion rate really is the final number prior to that. What percentage of people reach checkout? Well, prior to that, what percentage of people add to cart? That’s the one, have you moved the needle on that one? The others all go up too. And that’s oftentimes you wanna work a little bit backwards here. So if you get that add to cart, number up, say like, let’s say your add to cart number was 5%. If you can get it to 10% in theory, that conversion rate number may double as well. And it’s often way easier cuz it it’s granular. It’s sooner. So typically one of the easiest optimizations I’ve we’ve been doing for probably like the last 18 months, you know, the most impactful one anyway, early on our relationship to improve conversion is just make it utterly, effortlessly simple for a new visitor to get to the right product for them as quickly as possible. Right. And I think what that does is build momentum. It, you, you go to the bar, you see a girl, Hey, can I buy you a drink? Yes. Hey, can I or Hey, what’s your name? Yes. Hey, can I get your number? Yes. Hey, can I take you out? Yes. All right. You’re you’re building momentum there. Versus if you just walked up to someone and said, will you marry me? The answer’s a hundred percent of the time gonna

Arlen
[00:09:18]
Be no. Right, right.

Kurt
[00:09:20]
Where that’s the same. Thing’s going, you’re building a relationship using your website. Your website is your best salesperson. So when the customer lands on that site for the first time, that’s how we gotta think. And that, that like very first step, that thing we need them to do is find the right product for them. Get to the product and add it to cart and then everything else from there. Okay, great. Now we can start optimizing for that stuff, but until they add it to cart, what was, was the point? Yeah. Right. So I think a lot of people start way too late in that conversion funnel. Right. So that’s what I would look at is can you just get the right product to the right person faster?

Arlen
[00:09:54]
Right, right. That, that makes a lot of sense. And I love that analogy at a bar. You would never go up to a girl and just ask her to marry you. I mean, I’m sure it happens, but you know the results on that, like you said, about a hundred percent that you’re gonna get a know on that. And it’s, it’s the same way with the website and eCommerce sites. You’re not gonna just present someone, a product without, you know, doing any type of lead to that. Now, you know, many of our customers out there today, the world is changing a lot with regards to eCommerce and with eCommerce and conversion rate optimization. How really has that evolved now that mobile e-commerce is really big. Now, most people really do a lot where a lot of people do purchase on mobile devices. Is it, is it any different?

Kurt
[01:10:38]
It’s absolutely different. It’s cool. But it’s harder. We all have this device in our pocket that is straight up addictive. And we could sit on the couch anywhere. Like everyone in the bathroom’s on their phone, they’re on the couch, on their phone. Right. They’ve got this thing all the time in front of them. And then the whole thing is built around essentially creating distractions for, you know, because God forbid you have a terrible moment of introspection in, in your own life, right? You gotta keep looking at this phone for fear of thinking about our lives. Alright. That was a joke. You promise. But now it really it’s, it’s the physical form factor changes our behavior and we’ve got so like a, a laptop, you use it in a totally different way now than you’d use your phone. And it also changes conversion rate optimization. It changes our behavior pretty dramatically. So like the phone’s got a small screen, but it’s also to, it’s a vertical screen. Right? So it totally changes that form factor where now we need like very single columns of content and it’s gonna be very easy to read. And mobile phones don’t have keyboards. And even though people are like texting constantly, they don’t wanna type in their, in like as soon as you’re like, alright, you gotta type in your credit card address. They’re like, I don’t wanna do it.

Arlen
[01:11:46]
Right.

Kurt
[01:11:46]
So you have to make like affordances to this stuff to make it really easy to do. But here’s an really interesting one. This is universal with any site. It is much easier to get people to scroll than it is to get them to click through different pages. So a mobile device touch device, it’s it really easy to scroll. Yeah. So the idea of like the fold and, you know, scrolling down a page doesn’t exist nearly in the same way on a mobile device. So you can have these really long pages without a problem. And that will often convert better cuz you don’t have people jumping from page to page to page. Yeah. And you gotta be really mindful of load times too. That’s true. Like even like, yeah. You’re, we’re in Chicago, I’ve got, you know, we all have LTE, it works great. It works fast right up until you don’t have, you’ve got poor signal cuz you’re in, you know, the center of some building or you’re on the subway and now the phone’s on 3g and you better hope that your website is small enough that it will load properly on those devices.

Kurt
[01:12:44]
That’s just some of the couple of the interesting things I’ve, I’ve found with mobile versus desktop.

Arlen
[01:12:49]
Yeah. It makes total sense. And like you said, as far as the scrolling is concerned, people are already so accustomed to scrolling. I mean, there’s so many apps where you gotta, you know, you’re just scrolling through, I mean Facebook and Instagram, for instance, I mean it’s a never ending scroll of, of different posts. And so people are,

Kurt
[01:13:06]
It’s a looking pool. Yeah. You stare at it forever.

Arlen
[01:13:09]
Exactly. It’s a never ending looking pool. I like that. And people are comfortable doing that. So if your com e-commerce site, you know, takes on elements of that, where there’s a scroll and not too much clicking then yeah, you definitely will. Well,

Kurt
[01:13:21]
Let’s say you got like, here’s an easy optimization for mobile set up in your collection. Pages load a whole bunch of products in the first go avoid pation use infinite scroll. Yeah. Now, okay. Now I don’t have to click to other pages. The thing just loads seamlessly for them, you’re eliminating steps and decisions they have to make like, do I really wanna click next page? Yeah. Now they they’ll just keep scrolling. Facebook has trained us to do it. Yeah. Take advantage of that

Arlen
[01:13:45]
Stuff. Exactly. Yeah. But everybody has been trained. Exactly. You know, I Al this is the next question here is, is something that I always look at as, you know, as a way to kind of model things. And so what, what are e-commerce companies? What are some of the big e-commerce companies doing to get people to pay attention? What are they doing? You know, what are they doing right. Or getting right in terms of conversion rate optimization. Cause I think, you know, you can really learn from some of the big players in the, in the game.

Kurt
[01:14:14]
Certainly there are things we could point to, but it it’s an interesting dilemma. So the largest e-commerce players, we got Amazon jet Walmart target, they’re all teaching us how to shop. Right. So it, it kind of doesn’t matter what they’re doing right or wrong. We assume that they’re investing in data-driven research before all we know Jeff Bezos is just making things up, doing what he thinks is cool. Throwing shit against the wall, see what stick. Right. Who knows? I mean, the thing is, it doesn’t matter. Right. They’re teaching us how to shop. So for better or worse, those big players are setting the standards for us. Yeah. And like, it’s your business, it’s your site. You should do what you want, but you never want to have to teach your users how to use your site. If you can avoid it, you know, it’s homework and no one likes homework.

Kurt
[01:14:58]
So sticking to those design patterns that have been employed by your largest competitors, like Amazon can improve your conversion rates. Cuz then when someone lands on your site, their customers they’ll recognize those patterns. Even though they don’t think about it and intuitively know what to do. So if you Amazon has a clever one, the primary, they use color isolation theory. So the primary call to action on any page is always like is, is generally reserved for one look. Okay. So if you notice like add to car, this initial search button, then the added card button, then the proceed to checkout button. Those are all the same color and style. Wow. They trained you. Yeah. It’s it’s cool. Yeah. So that’s a simple thing. You do that on, you could do that in any eCommerce platform. It’s not gonna cost you anything it’s easy, but it’s that stuff and off, it’s it like we’ve got three Shopify apps. Two of them exist solely because there were cool features I saw on Amazon and thought, man, I wonder if we could make that work and that’s it like, that’s it. So it really, whether they’re doing it right or wrong, kind of doesn’t matter if they’re huge, they’re just they’re training us and we should, we should all kind of adopt those standards to make life easier. Right.

Arlen
[01:16:05]
Right. And the, the main thing and another point to that is they’re definitely training customers. But at the same time, you always have to look at these large companies because you just have to understand the amount of money marketing but dollars they spend. And you know, they have teams and teams of design folks that are going through the site. They’re doing, you know, they’re doing case studies they’re or they’re doing what, what was the word I’m looking for? They’re doing, you know, analysis of, of every little detail and all of that is going behind it. You know, there’s so much money behind it. So, you know, you don’t, it’s a small business. You don’t have to go and, you know, reinvent the wheel. You just have to pick up those small things. Like you said, little design elements that they, they stick to. And there’s, there’s reasons why they do that because all of, all of the decisions that they’re making is backed on a lot of money and a lot of research. And so you definitely can’t forget that now, you know, speaking of some of the design elements of a site, what are actually some specific design mistakes that you actually see merchants making?

Kurt
[01:17:13]
Oh, well the biggest one I’m gonna say is I could go endlessly, but right now my, my big complaint is crufty sites. So crufty sites are the, the result of flailing business owners. They’re just trying, trying stuff, hoping to God that they get the one app or feature that’s like, yeah, it’s gonna 10 X our business. And of course it doesn’t work like that. And when I say crufty, I mean, say, think of, of big, big boats, big ships, the older ship is the more barnacles it accumulates. Right. And everyone I talk to before we build a site for them says, I, they, I want, it’s gotta be clean. I want a really clean site. No one says I want, no one has ever once said my, I want a really messy cluttered site. Right. All right. So then why do they all feel the need to tell me they want a clean site?

Arlen
[01:18:00]
Right,

Kurt
[01:18:00]
Right. It’s cuz everybody over time the sites get crufty cuz it’s like, alright, they you’re cruising around. You’re on a competitor site. They do something cool. So you go, oh I gotta do that too. And then so, and you see a cool app. You’re like, gosh, I gotta try that too. And pretty soon you’ve got this 20 Meg homepage with two dozen widgets, all screaming at your visitors. Right. And it’s like, and it’s just a disaster. Yeah. So I think that’s, you have to start thinking in terms of, of expected value and have like an approach and process for this in asking yourself hard questions. Like, man, what purpose does this serve? Right. And that really is, it’s hard cuz on your website, it’s your, it’s your sales tool? It’s your salesperson, your 24, 7 365 salesperson. So I think the site’s got a job and it sell your stuff.

Kurt
[01:18:45]
Right. Right. And each page has a job it’s to get them to the next step. And each element on that page should have a job. And it’s whatever it is, whether it’s like bust this objection, add urgency, you know, get them to the next step, but qualify them, whatever it is. And that’s how you have to approach it. Like, so I’ll look at a site and just go, why is this here? And they’re like, I know, I thought it was cool. Then get rid of it. Right. It’s cool. Isn’t a good reason to have it.

Arlen
[01:19:08]
That’s correct. It’s it doesn’t make sense to have it. If it’s not, if you’re not seeing it a return, if it’s not being a benefit to your customers or your, your prospects and yeah. That analogy, I love that analogy. You mentioned as far as, you know, everybody wants a clean site, but

Kurt
[01:19:23]
Time they all start as clean sites.

Arlen
[01:19:24]
Yeah. They just over time

Kurt
[01:19:25]
And then two years after two years, then it’s like this disaster.

Arlen
[01:19:28]
Exactly. And it’s the main thing is it’s kind of like what you’re saying, it’s it goes down to everyone is trying to keep up with the, the quote unquote Joneses and you know, they see something cool on another side and one of their competitors, how I got, I gotta have it, even though it may not make sense for their, you know, for their business, but they, they gotta have it. So it’s, it’s just one of those things. But it

Kurt
[01:19:48]
Happen, it happens to everybody sometimes. Like I’ve certainly have done some very silly stuff just because I’m like, I wanna try it. Like I, I did a YouTube series from my car just because I thought I was watching a bunch of carve logs. And I thought, I wonder if I could do that. So I’m hosting a series about Shopify for my own damn car. Wow. And it worked okay. It was fine. I get leads from it. But it’s like, what was the real logic there? There wasn’t it was just something cool I wanted to try. Right. So sometimes there’s, there’s advantage in that. Yeah.

Arlen
[02:20:15]
There is, you know, there’s sometimes you can pick out some things that others are doing that, you know, it’ll, it’ll be right for you. And you know, you may hit a home run, but there’s other times where a lot of those times it, it may not be a good fit. Now we talked a lot about the design elements of the site and things that you can do with respect to improving that. But what about the messaging for the site? Like what specific messaging mistakes have you guys seen that, you know, companies have made mistakes and what, what could they do to improve them?

Kurt
[02:20:44]
Oh, and I’m glad you asked cause this, this is my number one issue. So truthfully this whole time we’ve been talking about design and features and patterns and really the number one thing we’ve ever done that has had the most dramatic results on boasting conversion rates is copywriting. Like just changing headlines, taglines descriptions that has been the most impactful thing. And it, you have to have good messaging. And the core to that good messaging is gonna be a good positioning statement. So really, if I have to say the big messaging mistake, I see people making is two things. They have soggy messaging as opposed to crispy. Like if you go Kurt, what do you do? I say, well, I help Shopify merchants uncover hidden profits in their store. That’s really crispy. That’s fast. That takes less than 10 seconds for me to say and you know, immediately.

Kurt
[02:21:31]
Okay. Shopify merchant. Yes. No. So if you’re not, we roll you out, we get rid of you. Right. And if you are Shopify merchant, now, it’s kind of like I just said to you, I’m a dog lawyer where you’re like, I gotta know more about that. What’s a dog lawyer. Right, right. Where they, they gotta ask. All right. So you uncover hidden profit. How do you do that? And then that then, okay, that creates the conversation and that’s, but having that positioning statement is really hard to do writing a positioning statement and you could do it yourself right now. You sit down and go, I help target market achieve, you know, desirable outcome, unlike my competitor’s competitive advantage. So that’s, you know, Kurt, ster helps Shopify store owners uncover hidden profits in their stores. Unlike my competitors, I’m solely concerned with return on investment. Right.

Kurt
[02:22:12]
They boom, 10 seconds, you know exactly what I’m doing, who I’m doing it for and why. Yeah. And that’s that sound like when I, you know, rattled off like that, it sounds easy. But no, I went through dozens of iterations. It probably took realistically years of, of experience to come up with that. It’s really hard to do. It’s really hard to write a positioning statement. So the result is people have saggy messaging like minus Chris saggy messaging is where like, it takes you a full minute to explain to me what you do at which point I have a hundred percent checked out and I’ve stopped listing, you know, 20 seconds in. So you wanna have that crisp messaging. And I think where people get into trouble is they’re, they’re trying to, they don’t wanna have like a clear niche, a laser focused market. They’re trying to cast a super wide net, right?

Kurt
[02:22:57]
So they write these very convoluted positioning statements, the other, the second half of it, you know, so number one, half clear and concise positioning. And in it, I say, I help. So I’m starting with, I that’s the only time I want to hear you use. I, after that, I hate like a lot of sites because when we talk, we talk about ourselves. But when you’re in marketing mode, when you’re in your site, man, you gotta talk about me. Like I’m not talking to a person, I’m reading a website. So at that point I am full on narcissist mode. I only care about myself. So I don’t wanna see sites with diarrhea where the things just, I, I, I, I, I all down the copy, you gotta talk about me to me and what you’re gonna do for me. So I think like those two things alone, having that, that cornerstone piece, that clear positioning statement, even like a three to five word tagline, hugely beneficial so that you have a clear idea of what you’re doing, of what your marketing message is and your then your customers will too. It’ll carry through through everything. And then just going, go through your copy. How many times are you talking about I yourself versus your customers? And even if it’s in the context of like, here’s what I’m going to do for you just rewrite the damn sentence. So it’s about what you are going to get out of it.

Arlen
[02:24:04]
Right. Right. And it, it is definitely a lot harder than it seems. And I come across

Kurt
[02:24:09]
Both of those things really

Arlen
[02:24:10]
Tough. It is, it’s not easy. And you know, it’s easy to say, okay, just come up with a crisp statement. But yeah, I come across this all the time where we have business owners that approach us to, to look into our software. And I, you know, a lot of niche businesses that are selling a lot are just stuff you just would never imagine. And you go to their sites and you’re like, wow. You know, you just, you can’t figure it out from within, you know, 10 to 20 seconds with a quick glance. And you’re like, okay, what is this? If you really have to just get to that point where if somebody can’t figure out what it is you’re providing and who their target is within, you know, just that initial glance, then you have a problem. So, but you know, it, it does take time to really massage it and make sure it’s, it’s, it’s very clear to your audience now wrapping things up. Well, what are a few things that separated enduring e-commerce business that you’ve seen, you know, from just a typical flash in the pan or just a hobby type business that’s just out there just because, you know, they have free time.

Kurt
[02:25:10]
Yeah. So like, I was lucky. I was in a position where I had, you know, I didn’t, I was a young guy. I had like, no expenses, no kids, no family. It is easy for me to just go and, and jump feet first into a business. Not everyone is in that position. Not everybody’s that lucky. And I certainly couldn’t do it today. So a lot of, you know, a lot of these businesses I’ll talk to people have really successful businesses and they’re like, oh yeah, well I still have my day job. I’m like, how the heck? And that’s, that’s where you get into trouble is like a, you have to develop. So the short answer to your question is what are the things that separated would be mindfulness, clarity of purpose, but above all else, being able to flex your no muscle. So, okay. Early on, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of creative play that entrepreneurs engage in and it it’s helpful at first you gotta experiment.

Kurt
[02:25:59]
Then over time, it, it could start to, and I see this a lot. It’ll lead to entrepreneurial a D D. So at some point like you had a hobby business, you’re doing it like nights and weekends at side hustle, that kind of thing. Yeah. And you’re experimenting. But then the business concept was validated where you know, your product market fit and you’re making money. So now what, well now you gotta, you need to focus. The only way you’re gonna scale that business is if you really focus and the counterintuitive thing there is, you gotta start saying no to all the new, the opportunities that your new success is brought. Like people are gonna start coming outta the woodwork. Oh, you started a business. You started this Amazon business. Can you coach me? No, I can’t sorry. Like you gotta start saying no to stuff and you gotta stay focused, avoid burnout, and then start delegating tasks, writing standard operating procedures and, and quit your day job. It’s really, at some point you gotta say to yourself, okay, there’s a tipping point. And you have to say, is this a hobby or a career? And it’s fine to have hobby businesses, but you just, you need to recognize it for what it is. Right?

Arlen
[02:27:02]
Right. Yeah. At some point, everybody that starts the business. You, you have to get to that point, like you said, where it’s no longer a hobby you’re gonna, you know, gonna go head first into it and don’t look back. So that’s, that’s very important. That’s that’s key. Well, Kurt, well, you, you gave a wealth of information. We definitely appreciate you joining us here on the e-commerce marketing podcast. And if there’s any e-commerce businesses or listeners out there that wanna get in touch with you, how do they do it?

Kurt
[02:27:30]
Google me head to my website, Kurt Elster, elster.com. Sign up for my newsletter. And if you, you, that those, yeah, it’s automated emails. They come from my real email address. If you hit reply and ask me a thoughtful question, I will be glad to send you a thoughtful answer.

Arlen
[02:27:46]
Okay, great. That sounds awesome. Well, thanks again, Kurt. And we appreciate you joining us. You have a great rest of your day,

Kurt
[02:27:52]
My honor, and pleasure.

Arlen
[02:27:54]
Thank you for listening to the e-commerce marketing podcast to access e-commerce videos and other resources to help your business grow. Please visit get osi.com/videos. Subscribe to us on iTunes by searching for e-commerce marketing podcast. And please leave a rating and a review. Thanks for listening. See you next time

Podcast Guest Info

Kurt Elster
Founder, Ethercycle