Arlen
[00:00:31]
Welcome to the eCommerce marketing podcast. Everyone. I am your host Arlen Robinson. And today we’ve got a very special guest Marcus cooke who has a background in Web Development, Marcus now leads the award-winning Technology Department at Space Between, based in the UK. Marcus is responsible for coordinating the Biometric Research Team, and CRO implementation team. He is also responsible for conducting and publishing original research insights. Marcus has worked with some of the world’s leading eCommerce brands, including ASOS, ghd and LEGOland, has partnered with the likes of Adobe and Dot Digital.Welcome to the podcast, Marcus.

Marcus
[00:01:19]
Ah, thank you. Thank you, having everybody.

Arlen
[00:01:20]
Yeah, no problem. It’s definitely a pleasure for all of the listeners. We’ve got a kind of a slightly different subject and I’m really excited to talk to you about which is biometric user research and it’s applications with e-commerce and conversion rate optimization. You know, the world these days is really advancing tremendously as far as technology is concerned and as far as taking advantage of data and really truly understanding the customers. So I’m super excited to find out what you guys have going on at space between and your insight into merging biometrics with conversion rate optimization. But before we get into all of that, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into what you’re doing today?

Marcus
[00:02:01]
Yeah, sure. I can give you a little bit of a history. I always like to talk about the biometric stuff as well. Cause it’s super sexy and everyone, everyone loves it. So a little bit about me. So I’m from the north of England Manchester. You guys might have heard it cuz of the football team and I live in kind of like the Southern part of England now. So in Kent and you guys might not know from the us, but if you’re situated in the UK, you people can definitely tell. So some people say I’m a stranger on my own country.

Arlen
[00:02:26]
Okay.

Marcus
[00:02:28]
So yeah, it’s quite a rarity around here to hear I’m a novelty, which is quite nice. So my kind of exploration of the internet kind of started when I was about 13, as plenty of people, my age, your parents generally got an internet connection with an AOL CD and then modem,

Arlen
[00:02:43]
Right? Yep. I was one of those.

Marcus
[00:02:45]
Right. And around that age, you know, you’re super like inquisitive. And I remember being like, so what’s this thing and it was one of those where things where they try and explain it to you. Initially you do a damn poor job of it and you send, you kind of get yourself involved and then, you know, give it two weeks and you’re teaching them how to use the body thing. Right,

Arlen
[00:03:03]
Exactly.

Marcus
[00:03:05]
And so I kind of used that to talk to my friends and talk to from, to different people around the world. I kind of got involved in a lot of different online gaming communities and I started making message boards and things like that. And then like how to install that on a server and then how to like design that and how to code it and how do we change this thing? And, and then there used to be this thing called like signatures on those message boards. Right. And I got involved in like making the graphics for those things. And that’s when I went super deep into like the aesthetic design. And so I was doing that probably around about to the age of probably like 1920. And then I started contracting for various different like local companies throughout that time. I started my university degree, which is in computer network technology, still contracting throughout those four years. When I finished university, we moved down here down to Kent and I joined a company called holiday extras. Now they’re not well known across the world, but in the UK, if you search air airport, car parking, Google at the first page, they are every single one of those links. Oh wow.

Arlen
[00:04:04]
Pretty much okay.

Marcus
[00:04:05]
Different brands. But they also work with brands like leg island again in the UK Aland towers and thought park and they make their holidays websites. And so I was involved in the, the fun side of the business, not selling Tama, actually, you know, getting people nice holidays. And so that’s where I kind of crafted and honed some of my skills. So there, they have like a super strong engineering culture and I learned from the best there. And I took on a lot from that experience. It was probably quite a few years in and I was getting itchy feet, you know, cause I’ve done a lot of contracting. I’ve spoke to clients I’ve, you know, kind of delivered solutions and had a, a wide ranging experience. And so at that point I kind of needed a new challenge and our couple of friends and I set up space between and we wanted to take the experience that we had from the previous jobs, the development, the UX, the analytics side, combined them into CRO and then kind of offer that to our different clients. So that’s kind of a, a whistle stop tour, I guess, of my recent history.

Arlen
[00:05:01]
Okay, great. Well that, that sounds awesome. Yeah, it was interesting. You mentioned the AOL and the CD and that definitely brought back memories and it’s, it really is so hard to believe that it’s, we’ve come so far from the dialup service where you just connected to the internet via modem, a dialup modem that connected via phone line and with the AOL, as soon as you log in that you’ve got mail. It’s just really amazing. But that actually really was not that long ago. I mean, it seems like it was like 50 years ago. No, it wasn’t was it, but it really wasn’t that long ago.

Marcus
[00:05:32]
It’s not all, you know, you know, I got back 15 years, it’s so different.

Arlen
[00:05:34]
Like, yeah, it’s very

Marcus
[00:05:35]
Different, you know, today you going to London on the train, you know, the wifi drops out on my phone. Right. I get really annoyed, you know, but like back in the day that wasn’t even a thing you had to be situated in front of a massive desktop computer. Right. Exactly. And also no one could be on the phone either.

Arlen
[00:05:50]
Yeah. Yep. Definitely. Yeah. So it’s, I mean we’ve made tremendous strides as far as technology is concerned for sure. And you know, I’m also thinking about the speeds at that time. The internet speeds where the dialup service, I mean, I remember it was like, what was it, 28 K was I think kind of the standard. Yeah. And I mean, you compare that to like now where I’m at right now, I’m getting a hundred megabytes download. I mean that’s like night and day. So

Marcus
[00:06:15]
That’s it. I always remember that scene from the Simpsons, with the comic group back guy and he’s like, he’s on the computer and he’s downloading image and you can just see it coming in line by and line. And that’s actually what it was all like, that

Arlen
[00:06:25]
Was crazy. That really was, and you know, people were patient back then and we dealt with it cuz it was a new medium and you know, that’s all we had, but yeah, that definitely takes me back a little bit. It’s really interesting how you really kind of crafted a niche for yourself, you and you know, the co-founders of space between and before we kind of get into what you’re doing and, and how this is really kind of some groundbreaking stuff. Why don’t you explain to us, you know, really what is biometrics actually for people that aren’t familiar with that?

Marcus
[00:06:52]
Yeah. That’s a good question. To be honest with you, because it sounds fancy, right? Biometrics. Like, you know, what the hell does that mean? Isn’t fancy, you know, it’s the easiest way of saying it’s biological metrics. So it’s essentially quantifying output from, from human beings, right? So generally human beings are analog. It’s hard to essentially graph what our thoughts and feelings are in a spreadsheet that generally you can’t do that with some of the sensors that we use. It makes that a little bit easier. So what we try and do is kind of measure and quantify data from people. So like how much does your pupil, when I show you this picture, how quickly does it change over time? How, why does it get and for how long does it stay that wide? So it is these kind of questions that we’re looking for. So how we can detect like changes in your physiology, changes in your brain, on your face and your eyes on, even in your body, temperature, your heart rate, your skin, your blood pressure, that kind of thing. And it’s using sensors to essentially gather that information and make it usable to us as well.

Arlen
[00:07:50]
That’s amazing stuff I know most of my listeners are probably familiar with as far as conversion rate optimization is concerned con familiar with, I guess you could say the initial version of what kind of you’re talking about. You guys have really kind take it to the next level, but I, I think kind of the initial analysis of kind of studying the behavior patterns of customers on websites is like the heat mapping technology, where you’re tracking people’s mouse movements and you’re tracking how long they’re on a particular page where you think their eyes are based on where their mouse movement is. And there’s a lot of solutions out there like that right now where you can actually do that. And you know, those are pretty cool things, but I’ve always wondered. And whenever I saw those solutions and the, the future set I’m like, all right, just because someone’s mouse just is kind of drifting over into one section doesn’t necessarily mean their eyes are focused there.

Arlen
[00:08:44]
That’s what always kind of got me at how really accurate those heat maps are. Because, you know, I just know for myself, you know, sometimes just like anyone, you may be looking at something and these days everyone is so distracted, we’ve got all of these devices, we got a million things we’re doing, we got email, we got chat, we got texting. And so I know, you know, for myself sometimes, you know, I may be at a website, but I’ve got a dual screen there. So sometimes I may be looking at another screen or I may be chatting with somebody else, but yet my mouse is kind of drifting over, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I’m focusing there, I’m looking at it. So I really don’t know how accurate that is, but you guys have really just taken it to the next level. So why don’t you just enlighten us a little bit about how you’ve really merged the two together, this biometric user research and to conversion rate optimization and how can this benefit an e-commerce company?

Marcus
[00:09:33]
So you touched on a few different, interesting points there. I think one of the things I like about CRO that it’s not based on opinion, it’s very objective. So it’s actually users voting with a wallet. And the key is the users there, like, and you mentioned there like there’s tools where you can see where people moving their mouse, we’ve done research and compared eye tracking versus mouse tracking and to see the difference. And what we found actually is that there’s different types of users. Some people like you say will, this is generally in the UK. The order demographic will fall along where their eyes are with the mouse, about one to five seconds behind it. They actually read with their mouse and those are fairly accurate. Some people they’ll will just move the mouse off the side of the screen, get the hell outta the way.

Marcus
[01:10:11]
While I read this text, in which case like how useful is the mouse tracking in that regard is not at all. So there’s lots of these different tools to essentially try and understand what your users are doing on your actual website. And the reason they do this is because if you are running like split tests or multivariate tests with converge optimization, you’re gonna have the best chance if you understand your users and their problems and the challenges they face. And obviously that’s very difficult. And so all these tools are trying to like dig down into that behavior there. What we find is, and how we kind of apply biometric to zero is the best way of doing it is to actually talk to your users. So don’t necessarily just try and watch them in a creepy manner using tools like session Cameron hacha right. Here’s a little bit weird.

Marcus
[01:10:54]
And the vast majority of people, while they’re opt into these things with cookies, they probably don’t know this stuff is going on. That can be very useful, but it’s kind of like one tool in our, in our toolbox. What we like to do is do the traditional UX research method, get eight people in a room, get them in one by one, give them in a representative cast to perform, make sure they’re you’re actual demographic and then ask them questions about it. What did you think about that thing? What did you struggle with all these kind of things? And what we are trying to do here is to understand the user motivation. So what are they trying to achieve? And what’s getting in that way now, when you do traditional UX research, I don’t know if you’ve done anything before, but people will tell you exactly what they well, they’ll tell you as best as they can, what they can remember, what they saw, but as you are now, humans are valuable. We, well, essentially when we do these things, users are lie to us, right? Because we’re collecting on this data. We can tell they don’t mean to lie. They don’t know any better, because think about, you know, actually what did you have for, for lunch yesterday? It’s gonna be hard for you to remember.

Arlen
[01:11:50]
Right? Definitely.

Marcus
[01:11:52]
And humans, memory changes over time. It morphs. And so every time we remember a specific instance of something, we’re not remembering the actual time it happened remembering the last time we remembered it. And so it’s kind of like a game of Chinese. Yeah. It become more, more unreliable.

Arlen
[01:12:06]
That is so true. And I think one thing that comes to mind as you were mentioning that as far as these questions that are, you’re asking these particular users is a lot of times, even if they don’t know the right answer, they don’t know the answer. They can’t remember. They may make something up because exactly they wanna fulfill that.

Marcus
[01:12:23]
They don’t wanna

Arlen
[01:12:23]
Feel stupid. Exactly. That’s the biggest thing.

Marcus
[01:12:25]
Yeah. Cause you are paying them to be in that room. They don’t wanna let you down as much as you try and detract yourself from that situation, they’re gonna try and do right by you. And also let you say they will lie to you. And so the reasons why we do all this is because if you think of like conscious or behavior as like an I spoke, what they’re gonna tell you is gonna be the very tip of the iceberg on the surface. And you’ll get that from normal. Like self-reporting through traditional user research or focus groups or tools like online surveys and things like that. You’ll get that information. What you don’t get is a vast other unconscious behavior that the person might not even know is going on in the back of their head. That explained the way we like to picture is imagine you’ve got a pie chart, cuz everything is fair in our graph.

Marcus
[01:13:06]
The self-reporting the conscious behavior is probably like 20% of the actual user motivation there. And the rest of it is under the surface and this is why we use these other tools to dig into it. So we use barometric sensors to understand like the deeper, the traditionally harder to understand aspects of the motivation. So did it connect with me? Did I feel an emotional response? Did I notice the key messaging information am I motivated to act? Is my brain actually sending in the right signals as well? And so what we do is we use all that information in a traditional kind of UX research manner to kind of one ask the right questions of the candidates. But also two, we have the wealth and depths of data to say, you know, one of the things I’ like to say is obviously when you are selling stuff on an e-commerce website, there’s gonna come a point in the user journey when they care about the delivery options.

Marcus
[01:13:51]
And let say, you’ve got a fantastic delivery USP. Next day delivery is free. Even if you order at [10:00] PM, we’re gonna get it to you at [9:00] AM the next morning. That could be the best thing in the world. But if all doesn’t see that thing, then it’s of no use to them because it’s not gonna influence their behavior. And so using eye tracking, we can conclusively say whether or not people saw that and how many people saw that. And again, with the mass tracking stuff, you can have an indication, but it’s gonna be a poor one like that. So we use these extra sensors to essentially build the level of confidence in the decisions and to actually understand the user motivation, to an increased depth that you can’t get elsewhere.

Arlen
[01:14:24]
That’s some pretty awesome stuff. And when you were describing everything that you’re gathering and all of this data, I’m trying to kind of picture this scenario, but you can of course enlighten this a little bit more. I’m kind of picturing somebody sitting at a, you know, a desk and just kind of strapped down with the electrodes. Yeah. Electrodes all over ’em I’m sure that’s a little bit of it to some extent, but that could be totally off. Why don’t you let us know a little bit about, you know, some of the technology tools involved that, that really make all of this tracking

Marcus
[01:14:50]
Happen. You’re not too far from the truth. Okay. Gotcha. Yeah. So it’s not quite like mad scientists with electrodes strapped on the head. Right, right. But it can be okay. I think one of the things that we like to take into consideration is there are research methods that you can use it a lot more invasive. So I’ll get through some of the senses, but there’s one called electroencephalograms and you might see it in like sign shows or doctor programs where they essentially have caps on their head. They scratched their head with a pie and electrodes to the head with a little bit of gel. Probably seen that before. Yeah. We don’t do that. You can do that. But if you’re gonna tell someone, oh, don’t worry. I’m just gonna scratch this scout now and put this cap on you. People run a pile. Right, right.

Marcus
[01:15:25]
I could imagine. So you always gotta way up, how intrusive is this method of research versus what value is it gonna give me? So what we like to use is eye tracking. So what that is a small sensor that sits on the bottom of the screen, it can see exactly where someone’s unlocking on the screen with the, an giant to use the tracker that we have is about the accuracy of maybe your fingernail. So if you put your fingernail up against your screen, you can generally see within that area, that’s about how accurate we are, which is quite good for websites and things like that. So that essentially shines in infer and light from the sensor into the eye, detects essentially the reflection of the cornea. And you can see exactly how that looks. There’s another one. You can do it with glasses as well.

Marcus
[01:16:08]
So you can use this similar kit that we have to actually test it in real world scenarios. So it’s not just eCommerce. You can put glasses on someone and you can put ’em in a car and you can have them drive to say the shops and you can see where then looking on the road and you can throw, oh, I can see they didn’t see this pedestrian you about to cross the road and things like that. And you see this’s been used in more kind of automotive situations, especially now with AI driving, which is super helpful. We also have a sensor called a GSR sensor. This is what I like to say is two thirds of a high detector test. So it’s Galvan skin response. What that essentially means is we, this is where we, the electrode thing comes in. We attach two electrodes to your fingers normally on the side of them.

Marcus
[01:16:51]
And this is a small electric current between those two sensors, the resistance in that changes depending how much you’re sweating. And that’s not like bundles and bundles of sweat. It’s like minute changes of sweat. So the example I like to use is if, are you a cat person or dog person? I’m a cat person. Okay. Right. So if I show you a picture of a cat, yeah. And I know you like cats within one to five seconds, your body will have a physiological response that you cannot control to that cat. And so we are using the GSR center. We can connect that and we can see that. And we use this for generally eCommerce checkouts and things like that. So we obviously you put in new car details. You don’t want to have a strong emotional response from the user generally, cuz it’s gonna be frustration normally, cuz I cannot body type in my car details.

Marcus
[01:17:31]
I don’t wanna type it. It keeps telling me no. And so we can use that to kind of quantify exactly what the emotional state is of the user. We have a, these webcams as well, and those webcams capture about 30 frames a second. It runs each of those images through a pre-trained AI model maps, different points that are faced. So like the eyebrows, the nose I’m motioning with my hands, but you can’t see around the mouth around the jaw. And we see how those points of the face change over time. So, you know, the side of the lips come up, the mouth opens. That’s probably gonna be a smile. So we map those into expressions and those expressions into different emotions. So emotions are like joy, anger, frustration, confusion, that kind of thing. She’s great from a standpoint because people have done this in the past, but the way people have done it is you or me would sit there and watch the video and say, this person’s smelled from second one to second two.

Marcus
[01:18:22]
And if I did that one day and then you did that another day, it’d be entirely different. But what we have is a objective machine doing it. It is the same every single time. And so we can compare data sets across time and we can be very confident in the data, which is very handy. And then there’s also the electron Interrogram like I mentioned earlier, it’s a cap on the head and you can see essentially which parts of the user’s brain are firing. So you can see whether or not they’re actually experiencing frustration in their brain, you know, and the right, right. Part of the brain, isn’t lighting up and there’s electoral activity there, whether they’re having engagement or excitement or even, you know, like some kind of meditation aspects as well, whether they’re in a calm state. And so those are kind of the senses that we use

Arlen
[01:19:03]
That is some really cool stuff. You mentioned some really key things that I know, you know, e-commerce companies are taking advantage of right now. You mentioned that certain things that you can do is find out are people actually seeing a certain area of the site, maybe it’s a promotion, maybe it’s a key area. Are they seeing that are the eyes are able to focus to that. Also you mentioned at the checkout point, the shopping cart phase, is there any type of uneasiness there? Is there some sweating happening or what’s there is there like a RA elevation in somebody’s heart rate, that type of thing. I can see how that’s very, very important and can really make a difference as far as really, truly breaking down what is happening with someone when they’re going through a site, whether they’re purchasing, they’re just browsing or perusing. So yeah, really cool stuff.

Arlen
[01:19:51]
And I know those things and just being able to analyze those things and make changes based on the data that you get is, is really tremendous. What I was just wondering though, is I don’t know how much data you have on this, but I could imagine that the top companies, these days have taken this stuff to the next level and are doing these type of things, like, you know, the Amazons of the world and you know, a lot of the other large e-commerce brands that have billions and billions of, of dollars for marketing and, and research. I, I, I wouldn’t doubt that they’re doing all of this. Would you agree?

Marcus
[02:20:20]
Yeah. Entirely. Yeah. If you, if you look into these larger companies, they’re all using this kind of stuff day in, day out and they test rigorously. And this is one of the things that I, we often have to essentially help our clients with is that from a maturity of business perspective, your competitors are doing this. If you are not doing this, you won’t understand your users and you won’t make the right decisions by them. And so you won’t be able to keep up with the competition.

Arlen
[02:20:43]
Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. So it’s like, as, as long as one of the companies is doing this, they have that leading edge and then the other companies really have almost no choice, but to do it or else they’re not gonna have access to the same data. Exactly. Know’s really no way around it, you know, with all of this stuff, like I said, it’s, it’s super exciting and it’s really amazing how far we’ve come in. Just a short period of time, you know, like I said, coming from the heat maps and just the basic analytics, you also described the fact that they were, we’re already doing this by videotaping people’s reactions and things that they’re doing when they’re actually just viewing a website and then analyzing the video of the recording of that. And then, you know, now, you know, we, don’t no longer have to do that. We can really just break down the where their eyes are, are moving and just the whole nine. So we’ve gone to the next level. Where do you see the future with all of this, the future advancements on the horizon with regards to biometrics technology? What’s next? Really?

Marcus
[02:21:36]
So I think the major limitation of the current technology is that I have to get eight to 12 people in a room and they have to have someone next to them for the whole body day. And then I have to someone pour over that data and, you know, map that into something usable for say a UX team or a UI team. I think the next solution will be more similar to these mouse tracking tools whereby you can essentially opt for someone to use, say their webcam. So there’s actually pre-trained IA models nowadays that can take your, an image of your eyes and see where you’re looking on the screen, such that you can have your actual users give you their own eye tracking data across the website. And it might be, you know, you just give them a site discount, but it’s, you can then collect data at a scale, which hasn’t been possible before because of the cost would be quite so prohibitive, but we’re probably still a couple years away from, you know, someone actually cracking that problem.

Arlen
[02:22:25]
That really makes sense. I understand what you’re saying in order to, for you guys to accomplish what you’re doing right now, it does involve a little bit of effort. You you’ve gotta create a kind of a focus group, get these people in, get them scheduled, get the data, then have your team analyze it and then make it make changes based on it. So there is still quite a few steps and yeah, like you said, I guess the next step would really be almost a, kind of a biometrics home kit. Really, if you will, where the company could send this home kit to a customer of theirs and exchange for discounts or some other type of incentive and they just hook it up to their computer and they take all that data, get it directly from that person’s computer, which really makes a lot more sense because getting data at that scale is gonna be a little bit more accurate because you’re getting people in their, their home environment or their work environment. And it’s a more of a natural setting as opposed to someone coming into facility and sitting down, cuz I right then and there that’s really different. Cause typically, you know that they don’t usually go in there. They’re not buying products when they’re coming into a facility. So they buy

Marcus
[02:23:33]
Online. You’re not gonna go sit next to a stranger. Right.

Arlen
[02:23:35]
It happens. Right. Exactly weird questions. Right. So, so right.

Marcus
[02:23:38]
You do some way to kind of, sorry. I was just saying you can go some way to kind of like lay that fear. Right, right. You can actually speak to them, human being, you know, have a conversation, but it’s not gonna be like, they sit on the couch with a phone and having the three kids around, well, they’re still watching the TV. Right. It’s not gonna be the same thing like you say. So yeah. That’s probably the next step.

Arlen
[02:23:55]
Definitely. That’s really some cool stuff, Marcus. We really appreciate you coming onto the e-commerce marketing podcast, cuz this is a subject that we haven’t really talked about before with biometrics merging with conversion rate optimization. We’ve had a lot of guests on before we’ve talked about conversion rate optimization and you know, it’s still a huge industry and it is something that these companies right now are the successful companies are taking advantage of. But now this being able to do this really has definitely taken things to the next level and it’s, it’s only gonna continue to grow. And you know, I’d like to finally, I always like to end up with asking, switching gears here a little bit and asking one kind of final fun fact question. And if you can just let us know and our audience know a little bit about yourself and just as far as what would be one fun fact that our audience would be surprised to know about you.

Marcus
[02:24:44]
These cohesions always catch me off guard. What is a fun fact about me? I dunno. I have two Beal cats. They’re they’re fairly sizable and they make a lot of noise and they’ve been very quiet today because my wife has been entertaining them upstairs.

Arlen
[02:24:57]
Okay. Gotcha.

Marcus
[02:24:58]
They’d be running around the house screaming, so

Arlen
[02:25:01]
Okay. That’s some cool stuff. Well, I’m a cat person as well at some point I’m probably gonna get some on my end and yeah. That’s cool stuff. I think the Bangal cats, those are the, are those the cats that are, that have the stripes that are similar? That’s

Marcus
[02:25:13]
What they like small tigers. Yeah. They

Arlen
[02:25:14]
Look like tigers. Yeah. They, those are really cool.

Marcus
[02:25:16]
They’re fantastic. They’ll play fetch with you and everything. It’s great. Oh really all like dogs.

Arlen
[02:25:20]
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I’ll have to pick your brain a little bit on that. I’m gonna do some research on my end, cuz that definitely may be the type of cat that I get for sure.

Marcus
[02:25:28]
That’s your buddy hit me up. I’ll let you know.

Arlen
[02:25:29]
All right. Great. Well, yeah, thanks again, Marcus, for being on and you know, finally, if any of our listeners would like to pick your brain anymore about the biometrics and, and conversion rate optimization, what’s the best way for them to get in contact with

Marcus
[02:25:42]
You. So you can just go to our website space between UK, jump on there, scroll down the page, right to the bottom. My email address is right there. Just hit me up or gimme a bell. I’m happy to have a check.

Arlen
[02:25:52]
Okay. That sounds awesome. And so that was space between do co.uk and we’ll we’ll have that in the, in the recording notes as well. All right, Marcus. Well, thanks again for joining us today on the eCommerce marketing podcast.

Marcus
[02:26:05]
Thank you buddy. Take care.

speaker 1
[02:26:08]
Thank you for listening to the eCommerce marketing podcast. 

Podcast Guest Info

Marcus Cooke – Space Between