Arlen: Welcome to the eCommerce marketing podcast, everyone. I am your host Arlen Robinson, and today we have a very special guest, Ken Wenz is an expert in online-sales psychology from Germany and increases revenues of Onlineshops and Online-Entrepreneurs by converting more visitors into customers through psychological optimizations in their offer, sites and marketing and has helped to further increase the revenue of small and local businesses and also of big 7-figure businesses. 

Ken:  Well, thanks for having me, Arlen. 

Arlen: Yes. Not a problem. I’m really excited to talk to you because sales psychology is something that’s definitely been popping up more and more kind of on my stratosphere, so to speak, because I’ve had discussions with others about it and how important it is to really understand the psychology of the customer perspective customers, and you know anybody in the demographic that you’re looking to read.

So I’m really. Excited to see where you can kind of lead us in that discussion. But before we get into all of that, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and specifically how you got into what you’re doing today? 

Ken: Yes, of course. So my name is Ken whence I’m from Germany. I’m actually born in France, but it’s close to the border region.

So actually passed. Most of my life in Germany, so let’s just call it Germany, where I’m from. And, um, I started not directly into the whole sales psychology started, feel like you like to call it. Um, actually I started off with biology. So after school I started studying biology at university and, um, what I did, my studies did my bachelor’s degree and.

Gather bits of knowledge into like the whole foundation, how the body works, the brain works, how everything is interconnected in our bodies and the animal kingdom as well. After I did my studies, then I went to Australia for two years. So just like, um, yeah, staying abroad, kind of doing everything, have a little adventure, learning things.

Learning new skills and everything. And, um, then when I returned after the time in Australia, so after two years, I started working in sales and I had no prior experience in sales. Well, I didn’t have any experience, so I didn’t really know how it works, what I had to do, if there were any rules or anything that I had to look after.

And so I started to inform myself, study on the internet, read books. Yeah. Worked for workbooks and everything and slowly started to apply all the information that I learned into my own sales work at the barefoot store, barefoot shoe store, sorry. And then slowly when I started implementing all the sales psychology.

That actually improved my own sales. So I became better and better in selling, well, the barefoot shoes. And at some point I became the best employee in the store. And then I fought. Well, the whole thing could also be done online. So then after working in the barefoot shoe store, I studied sales psychology.

So I went back to university, studied again. And um. Went more into the whole, well, the whole knowledge into the whole theory of sales psychology. And then after that was done, I went back to that barefoot who stopped because they had an online shop and I just offered them, Hey, look at your shop. We can do it better.

You know me already, like I was working in your store, in the physical store before, and it was pretty good. So if you want, we could improve your online shop, and by doing that you would probably increase your. Conversion rates, and we did that just by applying sales psychology minor changes actually that we did.

And that boosted the conversion rate pretty much. But do we have to say, of course the online shop was pretty bad in the beginning. So small incremental changes can already bring big, well, big return on your investment on it. Conversion rates if you start off pretty bad, but also for good shops, there’s a lot of potential left.

And so that’s what I did. And I could see the results from the online shop also from entrepreneurs with their own online sites, uh, websites. And, um, well you can also increase the conversion rate there. And so that’s what I did because I saw the results and also how the people, how they, well, they get very enthusiastic when they get the results and they see conversion rates are.

Rising and they tried so many different things in the beginning that didn’t work. And finally something works. So I just followed, I’m going to offer it for anyone who wants to do it on their own sites. And that’s how I got into the whole thing. And that’s what I’m doing now. So just increasing conversion rates of shops and.

Website’s great. We add that 

Arlen: to a presser story. It’s interesting to see that you really came originally from a totally different background industry looking into, you know, when you were studying biology and then getting into this. That’s a really interesting switch. But, um, yeah, I can see these days as far as.

Psychology is concerned. It’s something that I think, you know, all of the companies, the major players are focusing on. But I think what are the things that. I’m wanted to really start with is before really kind of diving into, you know, using psychology, psychological tactics to increase your sales. I think you really have to start by getting the attention and the trust of your potential customers.

So, uh, what are some ways in which a business can do that in online and eCommerce business can do that. 

Ken: Oh, I agree totally with what you say. So attention is the first step. If nobody notices what you offer. No one can buy it, or if no one knows who you are, they’re not going to buy from you. So you can gain attention pretty easily and trust as well.

You just have to look at what you offer and what your specific target audience is and the medium that you’re using to try to attract attention. So if it’s social media or if it’s a Google ads or anything, and then depending on those factors, you can. Pretty easily offer what you do and get a lot of attention.

So we would have to look at a specific example just to go into it in detail about that. Also, a few general things that you can do, so if you want to attract attention. And let’s say it’s not on your own websites or if you want to pull the Facebook ad out somewhere when you can do is that you just use in the picture in your Facebook ad, you use a face.

So it could be your own face, just another person’s face, the face of someone, of your target audience. Because. What we normally do is we recognize faces a few milliseconds earlier than anything else than what we see in our field of vision. So what happens is when you go through Facebook, you browse a bit through the whole thing, and the ad pops up with the face that’s looking directly into you.

So out of your screen, you automatically focus the face. And then if you have the right person. So if you. Well, you constructed the end in the right way. That person’s going to look first at the face and then add the whole ad. So already you have the attention. The person that’s looking at your ad is looking at what you offer, and that would increase the probability that that person is going to click on your ad.

What do you call do as well? Is work with colors. So if you have a certain background color. You could just use another complimentary color because that’s really going to pop out. So for Facebook, for example, if it was a blue, you could just use red, which is also a signal color. That’s just from nature, like ripe fruit for example, or different.

Um, dangerous animals use red as well, just as a warning color and use that because that’s going to attract more well more attention as well. Back to the blue background. And I think actually a good example, as well as if you show a strange use of a product, um, I don’t know if you know the brand old spice?

Arlen: Yes, I do. 

Ken: Yeah. With, um, I forgot the name of the actor who is, uh, doing the ads, but they always use kind of a strange. Setting the way to show the product, and that’s just to really pop out. And then that really grabs attention and you’re also going to remember it for a longer period of time while you also get a nice little side benefit of people talking about it because it’s just funny.

In that case. All spice and um, yeah, going to attract a lot more attention. And then on the other side, we’ve trust, like that also depends again, on what you offer and who your target audience is. But there’s also, again, just general things where you can do. So, uh, I think the major thing that you could do is just use social proof in terms of testimonials, for example.

So just people writing about using your product, how it helped them achieve whatever your product offers them. So. I don’t know if it’s a fitness product. They got fitter by using it and they write about it. Just like the reviews on Amazon, for example, you could just show your own expertise or show that you have a certain expert status by your content marketing.

For example, you could be acknowledged by an expert, so someone in your field. Of expertise who’s just an acknowledging you. Okay, this person knows very much and I guess he’s an expert. For example, use different authorities. I think that’s what’s done a lot with toothbrushes, or at least that’s what’s happening in Germany.

When you see an ad on TV or somewhere else, it always tells you that all dentists recommend this one brand of toothbrushes. If it’s true, you don’t know, but it certainly works. Because the dentist is the authority in that field of expertise and what else you could do as well, just you as a seal of quality.

So when, I don’t have a good example right now, but maybe like, like money back guarantee or if your product is waterproof, you could just use a seal of quality this waterproof for some amount of time and depth, for example, or anything else that really works. 

Arlen: Right? Definitely. Yeah. That is some good stuff.

Now, one of the things that you mentioned, a couple of things you talked about. Getting the customer’s attention. And you talked about, there’s several tactics to doing that. Using the face and the ads and the particular colors. And a lot of that is, are things that brands these days are using a lot of, and especially you’ve mentioned Facebook ads.

You see a lot of these Facebook ads are always pretty colorful. They’re full of stock photos. There’s a lot of faces, a lot of happy people, people doing things, different situations. And those are things, like I said, that are. Intentionally used to attract attention, but I think what brands have to definitely understand is before they do that, and you know, before you just say, okay, great, I’m going to create this ad, I’m going to have all of these faces in there before you do that, or I’m going to use these particular colors.

You really have to understand who your target audience is and create a specific customer persona so that you know. Who you’re you looking to reach. And then based on that, then you can craft your ad with things in it, elements in it, faces in it that are going to attract that particular demographic. So that’s, I think definitely step number one is getting their attention by going that route and understanding what their demographic is.

One of the things that I’ve also seen as far as gaining attention is with, you know, lately you mentioned. You know, doing some kind of unusual things in ads to gain people’s attention and old spices. Definitely kind of top and doing that. They’ve, they’ve always, they’ve had some interesting ads with their campaign that they’ve done, you know, recently, and a lot of brands are going that route.

I see it so much these days. I’ve seen Geico is a champion in doing that. Doing some interesting commercials. I know probably about a year ago. I don’t know if they’re still running the ads where they’re really short ad blocks where. There, the screen is kind of closing and then there’s like a situation happening, but when the screen is kind of closing, opening up and exposing their logo, what’s going on in the kind of the set is getting all pushed over.

So a really interesting, it catches your attention. And I think ads these days really have to do, excuse me. Brands these days really have to do a good job of catching attention just because. People naturally these days, especially with a commercial format, either they’re not watching them, they’re going to forward pass them because they’re just watching a show on a DVR, or they are just in, you know, naturally tuning them out.

So, yeah, the attention aspect is. It’s still very important and just because of those reasons. For sure. Now, one of the things also, once you’ve, let’s say you’ve got attention, you’ve captured people’s attention. They’ve come to your site, they’re analyzing your product or your services. How do you actually, and I think this is a really important thing because as we both know, and most people know that people formulate an opinion.

Immediately. Usually when they come to a website, they look at a particular product right there. They immediately have some type of evaluation. And so how does a brand positively influence a visitors, you know, initial evaluation of their product? What are some ways to do that? 

Ken: Yeah, totally right. In the circles, I’ll say psychology is say normally you have about five seconds of time to.

Have the visitor of your site to decide if he’s going to stay or if he’s going to leave. So the first thing that you would have to do if you’re working in the online business, so you have a shop or a website, is to make sure that all the important information is available in an easy way. So keep it simple and that it’s going to be so easy and so accessible that the person can see in.

Five so five seconds max that this site or this brand or this company’s offering, what he’s looking for. So that’s the first thing I do of doing. That’s what you have to do in the first section of your side. So before the person has to scroll down. And also in the, we call it above the fold. So before you have to scroll down, all the important information has to be available.

So that’s the most important thing then you have to do on the online world, because most people nowadays, it’s, if you look for something you open and not like five or six tabs, you go very quick through each tab and then you decide in a matter of seconds, I’m going to stay. I’m going to leave. So that first impression is very important.

Arlen: Yes, definitely. You mentioned a few things is making sure that all of that information is above the fold, which is key. One of the things, I guess also adding onto that is that you also have to make sure your messaging is super clear and. People like you mentioned, can really understand what it is that you’re providing, what problem it is that your product is solving, and who the target customer really is going to be.

Because if people don’t understand that, they’re, like you said, they may have five other tabs open and they’re just gonna. They’re gonna bounce away. And unfortunately, I know a lot of brands fall short of this because I, you know, I, I deal with eCommerce businesses all day. You’re at Omni star and I’ve seen a ton of different sites.

And I’ve been to sites where even above the fold, I go to the site and I don’t really understand, okay, what is this product? Who’s needs does it meet? What problems does it solve? And I just really can’t understand it. And I mean, granted, I could probably. Get a better understanding by digging deeper, going into more, maybe their FAQ is going into some of their product pages, reading the product descriptions, you know, I can definitely do that and get an understanding, but that’s not the right, do you want people to have to take, you want them to be able to really understand what it is you’re providing right there immediately.

And, um, yeah, that’s something that’s really so very important that a lot of brands don’t. Uh, you know, spend a lot of focus on, on doing. Now, you know, once you’ve garnered the attention of people, you’ve got them to have an initial trust Reno, right? When they’re coming to the site. I guess the next thing that you really have to do as a brand is really convince those customers then that you’re having an authentic product and it’s worthy of them using or purchasing how actually does a business.

Then. Go about doing 

Ken: that while you would have to show the person. So the visitor bet, what you offer is probably the best choice that is going to get for the problem he’s solving or tries to solve. And there’s also a few ways how you can do it. And they also depend, again, on who your target audiences.

What you offer and what kind of medium you’re using. Again, so if it’s social media, if it’s a newsletter or whatever, just general things, again, bet you can do is compare it to different products. So in terms of, if we look at Amazon, for example, and you have your offer something on Amazon, what you could do is just compare it to different products.

And then in that case you would have to look into what. The important factors for your customers generally are in making that love, that choice on what they are buying or they’re buying for the price. So are they going for the cheapest price? I’ll be going for design, maybe. So that product looks good and fits into there.

I don’t know. The kitchen or their home? Is it the features? Is it the dimensions? Is it something else? So really depends on the product and how you’re. Customer typically takes the choice. So let’s just say it’s going to be the price because most people are probably going to go for the price. Like most products are very similar most times.

And what you could do is just set a low price if you can afford it, or you could just give something extra for maybe a higher price and then just justify that higher price buy, for example, higher quality. You could just. Make your quality stand out more by a guarantee, for example? Well, that really depends on the product or even service that you’re offering.

So just like I said, it’s very general. Not everyone can use those tactics, but I’m definitely something to look into and also just make it very clear. How your product or your service is going to solve the customer’s problems or how he’s going to gain something fruit. Because normally we humans, we only act in two situations when, so if a problem causes us some trouble or if we’re going to gain something like, uh, I dunno, something’s going to make us very happy if we buy it.

So these are normally the two triggers that. Well, that really leads us into buying. So if you can position your product into want to showing your customer or your visitor that he’s going to gain one, or avoid the pain of not. Having to do something that’s very effective as well, and then just keep it simple, simple language, because most companies tend to make it very well.

Their texts and their descriptions normally are very complicated because they think that big words and complicated language, it’s going to make them stand out like an authority or an expert. But normally it’s just going to confuse people and they’re going to leave your site or looking at another product or from your competitors.

So, uh, definitely use simple language. 

Arlen: Okay. Yes. Some, some awesome tips because a lot of times these days, brands are so kind of in the mix of their whole company, their products and services and you know, they can easily communicate the ins and outs of their product or services. Because they’re familiar with it.

But a lot of times I think, but brands may use complicated language because you know, they, they know the ins and outs of everything. And what may seem like simple language to the brand is really complex wording to, you know, just the average lay customer. So, yeah, that’s a very. Simple messaging is very key for sure.

That makes sure that you, in layman’s terms, are able to express what it is the product does or services does. What needs does it meet, and what are the price points? How does somebody get from. Kind of beginning to end with it as far as making that, that purchase. So yeah, I think that’s super important. So I’m going to kind of switch it up here and kind of play devil’s advocate, so to speak here, and, and uh, and asked you a question that I, I’m wondering if certain brands are wondering that are listening because these days I think a lot of companies are really concerned about, we talked about our authenticity of a brand and making sure that.

They appealed to two customers or potential customers, and you know that they get the right customers that are purchasing it. And I say, when I say devil’s advocate, I’m talking about when you talk about sales psychology, I think. Just the term psychology and sales psychology may get a bad rap because most people that I know here, at least in the, in the U S when they hear that, they start thinking about, okay, somebody is using these psychological tactics to make me do something that I don’t necessarily want to do.

Or they start thinking about. Car dealers, maybe if you know anything about, you know, car dealers, I’m not sure how it is in Germany, but here in the U S um, it’s a, it is a, an experience when you purchase a car. And, um, they kind of use textbook strategies and I don’t know if you want to call them psychological strategies, but they use textbook strategies to, to try to get their sale and not, not all of them are, are, um.

Strategies that are 

Ken: fun for the 

Arlen: customer, but you know, for the company and these dealerships, they can get their sale using these strategies. So I say a lot of times people are saying, okay, you know, I don’t want to, I’m not trying to run game on my customers. I don’t want to psych them out to purchase something they don’t want.

What do you have to say with that as far as psychological tactics and does that really. Are you getting people to do something they wouldn’t normally do or getting them to buy something they wouldn’t normally want to buy? 

Ken: Well, you can definitely do it, but then you have to think about if it’s really that bad because.

In your daily life, normally, even with your own opinions, for example, you tried to convince people of your own opinion just by talking to them, making good points, good statements, maybe use good rhetoric’s or anything. Just to prove that your point is actually right and. There. You’re also trying to convince people of maybe believing something they didn’t want to believe before, which could be a good thing.

Maybe if they learned something and it’s something valuable that they’re going to learn, they’re going to benefit from it in their life. Same thing. With the product. I mean, I know what I get the point that you make that maybe it’s the slick and sleazy car salesman who’s just going to try to get his bonus or anything.

So he’s going to sell you anything and they’re going to make promises he cannot keep. Later on. You’re always going to meet those people, but they’re not all like this Lovelock car salesman are like this, right? In general, all salesman, I’m all like this, and in the end, yes. Maybe you don’t even know anything about the product or service they could.

Help you from which you could benefit by well, by the product or service. And um, they wouldn’t try to convince you of course, because that’s what you have to do. And in the end, if you’re going to benefit from it, I don’t see why there would be any problem trying to convince you of at least trying it maybe like with a trial period or just go for it.

If it’s a, if it’s a low price for doing it. For example, like an entry level price, you could do it. The risk is not that high, and in the end, if you benefit from it, I think that’s a good thing that you’re able to convince that person to try it at least. So, I mean this, with everything in life, there’s always going to be good and a bad side, and you have to be wary of it.

But, um, yeah, I think the good side actually is bigger on the same psychology term here. 

Arlen: Gotcha. Yeah, I understand. That makes total sense. And what you said, as far as in your day to day life, we all are always expressing our opinions, getting people to try to believe what we’re saying and .  our way of thinking.

And so it’s not something unusual when you’re, when you kind of relate this to the sales of a product, it’s really the same thing. And it’s something that we’re all constantly doing. So that really makes a lot of sense. And, um, yeah, it’s, I’m, I appreciate your take on that. Um, and overall, this has been a great conversation and we appreciate you being on the.

ECommerce marketing podcast today, Kim. But, uh, one of the things that I always like to do is kind of switch things up here and I ask one final kind of fun fact question and, uh, so we can get to know you a little better. Why don’t you share with us one closing fun fact about yourself that our audience would be interested to know about you?

Ken: Oh, well, I guess there are many fun facts. Actually, but I’m, if we just try to keep it on one fun fact, when I was working in the shoe store, so barefoot shoe store one day, and I was trying out some, some of the sales psychology techniques, I actually found out that. Most times it’s actually though, you just have to convince people and they don’t actually look at the prices of your products.

So, um, one time what I, what I tried was just when one customer was coming in, he tried on the shoe and he didn’t even look at the price. He just wanted to get a discount. So he just wants to get something like a deal. Like he gets something out of it. He gets a cheaper. So what I tried, and I hope he’s not listening in now, and he.

Forgot. Maybe who I am is that I just made up a price, so I don’t remember exactly, but I think it was 10 euros higher than what it would be, and I just gave him like a 10 Euro discount. So in the end, the price of the shoe was just the same. If he was buying regularly. But he was happy about it because he got a discount.

So actually kind of a slick and sleazy trick. 

Arlen: That’s interesting that you say that, and I think you’re not alone with that particular tactic. Actually, that tactic, I know it used by a lot of brands these days. I hear it a lot of where our brand will. Well, Mark up their product just to discount it because they know, they understand that whole psychology of the fact that people are always looking for a deal and if they see a deal or discount it associated with a product or service, they’re going to be more excited and more interested to try it out.

Even though when it comes down to it that the pricing of that may not be any lower than, you know, the regular retail price. Because they may have already marked it up to dip to Mark it down. I think that’s something that really is commonly done on a, I think on a frequent basis from what I’ve seen. 

Ken: Yes, definitely.

You can. I mean, you can also see it in the store sometimes when you look at the label, the old price is not very, I mean, you can see that it’s really printed that it has been crossed out. Right. 

Arlen: Yeah, exactly. That’s interesting. We, I appreciate you sharing that, that story about, uh, you know, this, that she’s steward, you’re doing that particular tactic, but it does work.

And, uh, you know, you don’t have to the only one, like I said, so brands are doing that consistently. Well, Ken, it’s definitely been a pleasure talking to you today and we appreciate you being on the eCommerce marketing podcast. And lastly, um, if our audience. And listeners would like to pick your brain any more about sales psychology?

What is the best way for them to get in contact with you? 

Ken: I would say for all the English listeners, so English language, just the easiest way to contact me by email, so I guess you will also put it in the show notes, but I’m just going to mention it right now. It’s Ken wins at GMX dot D. And so K, E, N, w, E, N, Z, ed GMX dot.

The so if you have any questions, feedback, or anything, just email me, feel free to contact me and I’m happy to answer any questions. 

Arlen: Great. Well, we appreciate that, Ken, and I hope our listeners take you up on reaching out to you, but, uh, yes. Uh, thanks again for joining us today on the eCommerce marketing podcast.

Ken: Thank you for having me.


Podcast Guest Info

Ken Wenz
Expert in Online Sales Psychology