Arlen
[00:00:57]
Welcome to the e-commerce marketing podcast. Everyone. I am your host, Arlen Robinson. And today we have a very special guest Kyle Dufford, who is an executive specializing in crafting experiences for global brands. A former magazine editor, he also spent a bunch of his career with a focus on the fashion, outdoor and sports industries through the eCommerce and digital lens. From his days at Speck Products where he was part of a Webby Award-winning team, to Dr. Martens where he developed and doubled the online business, his unique blend of design, branding, and digital best practices lends itself to creating and leading some of the world’s foremost brands. Welcome to the podcast. Kyle.

Kyle
[00:01:44]
Thanks, Arlen. It’s good to be here.

Arlen
[00:01:46]
Yeah, not a problem. And thank you for joining us today. I’m super excited to talk to you today because our topic at hand for the day is retargeting, which is something that’s really exploded over the past few years. And it’s, I’m really interested to kind of dive deep and enlighten our audience and kind of what you can bring to the table with regards to retargeting customers. And so before we get into all of that, if you don’t mind giving us a little bit more detail on your background and specifically how you got into what you’re doing today.

Kyle
[00:02:18]
Yeah. Well, thanks. Your intro is very gracious. It, it, I never get used to people lobbying accolades my a way like that. So thank you so much. I think somebody else wrote that. Maybe not me.

Arlen
[00:02:28]
No problem.

Kyle
[00:02:29]
My background is kind of really varied and I was just listening to a podcast yesterday, an old friend who, who does a podcast called plucking up and she happened to have Matthew McConaughey on don’t ask me how she got him as a guest, but wow. One of the things is they’re talking about how it was some statistic that 80% of the people are doing something in their life that they didn’t plan on doing. And I don’t know where she got that from, but I’m one of those folks that I, I went to school for lots of different things. I tried journalism and I failed out of the J school and I tried art and wasn’t too good at it. And so when I started in my career, I didn’t know what exactly to do. And so I just launched my own magazine and I figured, well, I’ll just do that.

Kyle
[00:03:08]
Had no idea what I was doing. And it kind of launched this interesting way of me wanting to find out answers to complex problems just by way of necessity. So if you wanted a magazine, you need to know who was gonna print it, how are you gonna print it? How do you get writers? How do you pay for them? You know, what’s a BIPA number. How do you get a skew, not a skew, sorry, a barcode. It’s like all these things that I was just like, wow, somebody has to know that stuff. And that just kind of became the, the defining way of my career. So anyway, I did that for a number of years, sold it to a competitor. This magazine went on to write for a number of ironically, after failing out of the J school, I wrote for outside magazine men’s health men’s journal and some cycling and running magazines, and then somehow managed to leap into online editorial online content when magazine writing was kind of dying during the first recession and I that with storytelling and now driving people to online content with somehow learning e-commerce. And I ended up spending, as you said, formally at spec products, and then went from there to numerous companies, Chrome industries, keen footwear now outdoor products, Dr. Martins, and then consulted for a bunch of folks. So I just found this unique end of storytelling, plus acquiring consumers and being able to sell them product, just kind of develop this, just kind of this perfect storm for me. So it’s, I’ve been lucky for sure.

Arlen
[00:04:30]
Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, you definitely have had a, kind of an eclectic career. You’ve gone through a lot of different industries and I’m sure the exposure that you’ve had with those different industries has kind of shaped what you’re you’re doing today and your awareness of you meeting the needs of different markets. So, you know, I know that was definitely something that’s been a benefit to you. Absolutely. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing that and, you know, accolades to your successes there. But you know, as I mentioned at the beginning today, we’re gonna be digging deep into, to retargeting. And so one of we kind of just hit it at the, be the root, what is retargeting and really why is it so important today? Cause as I mentioned, I think it’s really exploded over the past few years.

Kyle
[00:05:09]
Yeah. I mean it has, and while I won’t claim myself an expert in this, because it’s always been one of our strategies that we worked with and, and I would say, yeah, a couple of years, maybe like 10 years almost. I think when it came on the scene retargeting for those who don’t know. And, and if you don’t maybe know it by name, you know, it by experience basically you visit a website or a brand social platform or whatever it might be, you visit some property of a business or a brand. And then later on they serve you an ad or some sort of content back to you just based on the mere fact that you’ve engaged with them previous. So that’s really the nut of it. It started off by display. Advertising was kind of going the way at the dinosaur. I mean, I always ask people when I give a talk, when was the last time you clicked on a display ad?

Kyle
[00:05:52]
I mean, I can’t remember, and they’re just not reliable. And the, the, you know, you were spending money, handover fist to get really no return. What people quickly figured out is if you could put a pixel on your website and we’ll come across data protection, I’m sure later in this podcast, but if you put a pixel on your website and track individuals, then instead of really finding the next place they’re going to go or kind of like an ancillary market, we’re just gonna follow the user around the internet. And so for a long time, people were even my brother at one time asked me, he goes, oh my gosh, I was on this very, very small Arabic website. He’s a teacher and works in international studies, very small Arabic website and your company was advertising on it. Gosh, that’s amazing. And, and I think a lot of the people thought that’s what was happening and right. They gave this illusion to bigger brands and, and a brand was bigger than they, than they were really. You’re just following somebody around the internet. It’s creepy. It’s weird. But it’s the nature of the beast now. And so retargeting has become such a fundamental piece of a digital strategy, especially for e-commerce businesses. Right. So that’s really it in a nutshell.

Arlen
[00:06:56]
Yeah. Thanks for that explanation in it. I actually had a similar experience, a business associate of ours happen to come across one of our retargeted banners. I believe it may have been on CNN’s website, actually, one of their, you know, sites. Cause you know, it’s kind of a conglomerate now of these different portals. Now they have all of this data on CNN’s website coming from so many places, he saw it and he believe it. He was just like, wow, you guys, advertis is gonna see it. Then he was just like floored by it. And I think at the time I kind of broke it down to him a little bit. He didn’t quite get it, but yeah, it was that experience where somebody sees your brand associated with another, a major brand that’s even kind of bigger than your individual brand really does give you a little bit of authority.

Arlen
[00:07:44]
People definitely kind of, when they’re thinking about your brand, you’re like, okay, wow, they’re in the likes of these sites, these major portals, the CNNs or whatever. And so it’s definitely something that has had an interesting effect because digital landscape has really changed so quickly of course, with the explosion of social media, all of these different platforms. And then now the focus on all things digital due to the COVID 19 and, and kind of the shutdown of face to face events. Everybody’s focused online. Why I think right now, why do you see this whole retargeting to be more important than it ever was?

Kyle
[00:08:26]
Yeah, that’s a great question. There’s something really magical that happens when a customer consumer takes a hold, a product, a business or service and kind of understands what it is. It’s this emotional connection. It’s really the foundation of what a brand is. You know, a, brand’s not a logo, it’s not your name. It’s not all the insiders are part of it. Yeah, for sure. But there’s what we call it’s the, in the intangible. Well, we don’t do this actually famed advertising, man, David Ovie has said that a brand is the emotional connection and the intangible sum of all of its parts, including a logo and so forth. So when that happens and you just mentioned it, you said when based on where your ad might appear, it, it gives more credence to the brand, more importance to it. And so when you start seeing something in repetition alongside a more reputable source or business or pro product or, or one that you trust, you start developing that connection, right?

Kyle
[00:09:18]
So now look at the pandemic days and see how people are turning toward the internet. Businesses are turning more toward it than ever before. I think of a lot of businesses who put some money in e-commerce, but still had a pretty solid brick and mortar business. And so they didn’t turn all their attention in their are maybe least of all marketing. It sounds weird to say that in 2021, but it was true now everyone’s there. Shopify has seen explosive growth from all the MOPA and, and smaller businesses jumping on there. So more than ever, people are playing in a space. So you really have to have that connection with people. And the one of the ways to do it is to continually meet them where the they are. And there’s an old ministry term. Someone told me a long time ago and said that you have to meet people where they are otherwise they’ll never respect you and you kind of meet them in the middle.

Kyle
[01:10:05]
So when you’re looking at a, a brand or a business you’re shopping around, you don’t know what’s going on. You, you have a sea of people to choose from and like-minded products and so forth. You don’t quite know what their value is. They’re you’re selling proposition, whatever it might be, then you start seeing them. Then it’s like an old friend starts coming back. You’re like, oh, I remember them. You don’t know why it’s the median of the emotional connection with the mental game of just thinking they’re more important. So more than ever nowadays, when most people are shopping online, especially for things like groceries and diapers and toilet, it’s such a crowded space that if you can hit people wherever they are getting their news and the coffee in the morning, or whether they’re, you know, surfing ESPN during March madness, if you can follow them, if you can hit them with a repeated message, it’s just that constant reminder that you’re there. It’s just really powerful. It’s kind of like, you know, the neighbor you meet the day, you move into your house versus the one who always comes over and offers their assistance. You remember him more because they’re, they’re there more. So it’s just, it’s human nature.

Arlen
[01:11:04]
Yeah. I like that. When you said you’re hitting them where they are. And I think it’s also very important now, like you mentioned, just because these days people are, are a lot more places online than, than ever before, because of so many opportunities to do things online, to consume information, watch videos, you name it, play games, figure out how to get to a restaurant. Everything is tied to the internet. And so because of that, and there’s so much focus on it. Yeah. You gotta reach people where they are. And you know, if there’s, you’re trying to draw eyes to your business, drive traffic, it’s a very important strategy. Now, speaking of strategy for businesses that maybe heard of it or interested in doing it, don’t really kind of know where to begin. Is there a particular recommended strategy for retargeting that they need to follow?

Kyle
[01:11:53]
Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, people need to realize this is while it’s an easy tool to spin up. Definitely have somebody who knows what they’re doing, because while it might be simple for somebody like you or, or myself or our team here, you wanna make sure, you know, what you’re doing the days have gone by where you could just put a retargeting pixel on your website and you just blast everyone with the same message, especially when we’re talking display advertising or display retargeting. Now you can become so sophisticated with either placing the pixel through Google tag manager or using the Facebook universal pixel or whatever tool you might be using because now you can target certain pages, you can target behavior. So not just the individual, don’t give you a quick example. If I visit the page I surf around and I leave, whether it’s a bounce consuming to one page and leaving or surfing around and shopping and then leaving, I could get one message which still might be more brand related while you should come back.

Kyle
[01:12:47]
Who we’re about what I value is compared to somebody else, no matter where you hit them with that message, whether it’s on social, where, and there’s tools that deliver email. Now, if you can identify who they are, whatever it might be, it should be more of that kind of upper level funnel. Kind of let’s tell you who you are. If you’ve gone to a product page, for example, but you haven’t put something in the cart. You might wanna have a specific retargeting ad that is very product based, particularly that product, right? It’s you can do this through Google shopping feeds and, and, and also Facebook, the catalog through Facebook and Instagram and so forth. Now say, you’ve put that product in your cart, but you haven’t even viewed checkout, or maybe you’ve put something in your cart and a couple other items in your cart.

Kyle
[01:13:29]
You can even get a little bit further down the funnel. You’ve now seen intent of the purchaser or potential purchaser, and you can change the message for them as well. And if they’ve put in their cart and then actually started the checkout and abandoned, well, you can incentivize them somehow to return and purchase, or you can just change the message. So it’s become so granular. Now I would say that start off with that kind of upper level strategy. Just dip your toe in the water, see where your people are after they’re visiting your site or your property, and then take it from there. If you are mostly, obviously e-commerce is, is more engaged in this strategy than the non commerce websites. But if you could do that and then further delineate who they are, it’s really impactful. I caution folks though, because they think, okay, I’ll go do this.

Kyle
[01:14:12]
And then they don’t realize all the assets they need to create to have separate messages and dynamic content or text that you’re surfacing somehow or, or whatever. And what we do for a lot of customers who are sophisticated. We can actually change that retargeting to know that if they do come back, if they’re repeat user, we can even change content on the website based on what they had seen previously. And you can go down that rabbit hole and get really granular and really sophisticated really quickly to start off with that strategy of just getting it on. There would be great, you know, get someone who knows tag manager or can embed it into your source code. Yeah. So see, I can talk about this for hours. So you just cut me off when you want me to

Arlen
[01:14:49]
No problem. Well, yeah. I, and I love hearing it because, you know, I know our listeners are, you’re looking to do these things and it’s sometimes it’s kind of hard to determine where to go. And I think, yeah, I like what you said, you want to definitely at least get it added and then kind of go from there and see how far you can tweak it. But yeah, I didn’t really realize there’s so many things that you can do such as changing the messaging on the, that they’re coming to after they see a retargeted ad. If they click on that and then go to your site, very powerful stuff. Cause actually come to think of it. I I’ve had a few experiences like that, myself where through Amazon I’m, I’m shopping on Amazon all the time, I’m looking at different, let’s say clothing items. I recently bought some, some athletic shoes and then I bounced over to, I think it was, I went on Instagram and then I started seeing those ads there. And then I started seeing ads for comparable products. So it was, yeah, it was really just all really kind of tied to me doing that initial search. And I don’t know if I add, I don’t even think I added any items to my card. I think my experience may have been a little bit different if I did that, but I was just browsing some athletic shoes. And then I, I had that experience.

Kyle
[01:15:55]
What did you buy? Just outta curiosity? What did you end up getting?

Arlen
[01:15:57]
I ended up getting actually the same shoes that I have. I bought some Nike cross trainers. Okay. I was looking and looking and looking and I was like, why I just get the shoes that I already have. They knew shoes. It didn’t, I didn’t work. Didn’t work. I was on the fence cause I looked at some Pumas and some other shoes, they up feeding those retargeted ads. And then I’m like, wait a minute. I like the shoes that I already had. They just wore out. Why not just get some more? So I just decided to do that. But yeah, it did not work in, in my case.

Kyle
[01:16:23]
That’s hilarious that that didn’t, that didn’t work well. I you’re a qualified user. In your case, you are searching for this information, know that you can weed out garage, door openers and light switches. And you, you know, you’re looking for an athletic shoe that’s different than the days past display advertising. It was just kind of a spray and pray and hope that you catch somebody. So now it’s, you know, you’re at least a qualified consumer. And then the further you drill down, the more qualified you become. And so you would expect higher things like a higher conversion rate, a higher clickthrough rate, especially if you’ve looked for that product or service previously. And then you’re being served that same information back to you. You’re more likely to click on that than it’s the first time be an experience with it. So you were one that you were like, yep, I’m gonna try this and I’m try this and look at it.

Kyle
[01:17:13]
And it didn work for you, but at least you’re now learning about, you know, you just even mentioned Puma, you’re learning about other brands and you might think of them for something else in the future or seeing something through that journey that might interest you Instagram. Pretty amazing. I mean, I’m one of, I think I’m one, like many people who I’m a sucker for a good Instagram and they’ve learned me so well that not only getting content served up to me in my explore tab, but just the fact that, I mean, I, I think Instagram is one of those things where it takes so much information from somebody. I mean, it’s driven off the Facebook platform. We know, but it takes so much information. I mean, I’m not on Facebook personally. So it relies on my interaction with brands offline. And then coming back to Instagram, my interaction with the brands on Instagram and then going offline and it’s able to commingle kind of like adjacent services or products and in sector products that it just thinks that I would like based on what I’ve liked based on what I’ve viewed based on what I’ve interacted with.

Kyle
[01:18:14]
It becomes this like really, really interesting game where they’re gonna show me something that I have a high probability of liking based on my own past experiences. It’s almost weird because it’s not like you open up a newspaper paper and you see an ad for something like we did growing up where it was like, wow, I’ve never heard of this thing. And you’re being presented with something that you either like it, or you don’t, if you’re intrigued at all, you read more about it. But when you go to the next day’s newspaper, it’s not like you’re getting another ad based on what you did yesterday, today. It’s completely different. So it’s almost the further deep you go. The more narrowed your focus is, you’re kind of, you’re less open to those experiences. I try to clear my cookies a lot, not for safety, not for privacy, just because I wanna see new stuff. I wanna engage with new things. I wanna learn new things. I don’t wanna go down that rabbit hole of just because I’m this political preference or that political preference. I’m only gonna get served with those type of things that just feeds the beast. I wanna see other views. So it, it can be dangerous, but it’s all can be. It’s very, very intuitive for people to just click through and end up getting what they think they want. Anyway, it’s, it’s fascinating.

Arlen
[01:19:19]
It really is. It really is. And you know, the heart of it is just that the data that is being obtained, like you said, from all of these corporations. And so that’s really the power of this retargeting. Totally. You know, as far as this whole retargeting for people interested in, in doing it, what are some tools that really go behind the scenes to make all of this happen? Cause you know, it’s not like magic. It just doesn’t these banners just don’t magically appear right on CNN’s website, these other websites and Instagram, how does it work? How does it all happen?

Kyle
[01:19:50]
Well, how it works, we’ve mentioned in this word pixel before, or some people call it a tag, just a little piece of code that is on your website. And so I think I mentioned you get someone who knows what they’re doing, you know, get your it developer or get your website, developer, your eCommerce developer. And they know this stuff already. This isn’t gonna be new to them, but it might be new to people listening and get them to place the code in there. We like tag management software. We use Google for most of our clients cause it’s easy and it’s free. And to place these pixels, these tags onto this container. So basically you can, you don’t have to go bug your developer every time you can still screw it up, but not as much then from there, just determine where you want to be.

Kyle
[02:20:27]
I would personally start with social media, take that Facebook pixel. If you’re selling to businesses, you can take a, a LinkedIn tag, which is very similar and definitely the Google retargeting pixels in there as well. So you place that stuff in there and I would just let it run for a bit. So just let me explain that. I let it run because let’s just start collecting information because if you just, if you turn it on the same day that you implement it, you’re gonna have very, very limited knowledge. So I let it run there’s businesses because we put tag manager on all of our clients’ websites. We typically put on a Facebook pixel, we use ad roll quite a bit for retargeting. You know, we throw that pixel on there. We put Google on there and we just let things run. You don’t have to pay for that.

Kyle
[02:21:08]
You just start collecting that data. So now we have information on what is the subset or percentage of consumers that visited three or more products. How many times do people come back twice in a day or start another session within the same day and try to figure that stuff out. So then you’re not flying blind when you start those campaigns, which is, gosh, another whole other podcast on how you start a campaign. Do you integrate campaigns through your integrated digital marketing calendar and what that looks like? But when you do start a campaign with these services, these tools, no matter what it is, you can actually say, I’m gonna start with people who visited three page and didn’t three pages or three products, and didn’t convert. I’m gonna hit people who did convert because I wanna introduce a new product to them. You know, you’re starting to collect this really interesting group of people, but now what we can do is three or four months down the road.

Kyle
[02:21:59]
When we go back to our clients, we can say, we can tell you about these folks. Let’s start a test, let’s start a campaign with them instead of at the, that moment, having this start and wait for that data to collect. So I would kind of start there. It’s just really building blocks. It’s if you think about building a house, you really start with the foundation and then you actually do the rest. And so that foundation in this sense is really just getting your site built in a way that it can accept these tools that these pixels it’s very easy, but sometimes you don’t, you don’t even have developer. You might have, have to have an outsource group that has to go under the hood and they’ll tell you, it takes a lot of time and money, which it doesn’t. And then just set this stuff up.

Kyle
[02:22:35]
We do it for free typically, just because we wanna be able to work with our folks later on. So I would just get it started and then just start watching the data. See if you can find any kind of correlations or, or interesting spikes or anomalies or things that you might not know. It’s not unlike looking at your analytics, but just from a different viewpoint, but you can see how many people are doing a similar act or maybe not enough of something. When I was at Dr. Martins, we would do this a lot. You’d people you’d see people coming for the product that they know the brand for, but they might not know that we make other silhouettes and other styles, sandals, and low top and canvas shoes and so forth. So why not introduce them to new products? So it’s an awareness tool that way, not just always engagement or conversion. So, you know, in the strategy behind it, there’s people a lot smarter than me who can help you with that. But that’s where I would start for sure.

Arlen
[02:23:25]
Okay, great. That makes a lot of sense and yeah. You know, getting that data and, and then you had mentioned, you’re gonna be grabbing the data. You’re gonna be seeing the activity of people, what they’re doing, where they’re going. Once they click on these things, where they’re going on your site, how long are they there? All of this is just gonna be growing and growing over time. Absolutely. I guess the key thing as we get ready to wrap this up is once you’ve got this going, you’ve got the data going, you have activity. I mean, what are really the core, key performance indicators that you’re gonna look at to really kind of justify that it makes sense for you to continue doing this and make sense for you to double down or what are you really looking at?

Kyle
[02:24:05]
Yeah, that’s great. Well, everything you do should be, you should look at its metrics, see if it’s working, decide the efficacy of things and anything you do, and just kind, not just retargeting, but anything. I would start outlining what your goals are first, how you’re gonna manage that and identify those KPIs, those key performance indicators. And what metrics are you gonna be looking at to determine if those KPIs are being met? So in this case, typically, I’d like to see percentage of people who have returned. I look at things like lifetime value. I compare time on site from a new user to a returning user segmented by the people who had clicked at retargeting ad and came back. I would look at click through rate. We talked earlier about click through rates were typically higher than if click through rate of a, a Virgin ad because you’re more familiar with the product.

Kyle
[02:24:50]
So see what that Delta is. And is it moving? Can you change things? I would always a B task to see which one is working better than another. But yeah, I I’d look at traffic to site from those campaigns, click through rate and then ultimately things like lifetime value. And you also wanna, again, if you’re selling through e-commerce, you wanna make sure that version rate should be higher, if not a little better than what you’re doing natively, because you’re getting someone who’s coming back. You know, you eliminate most people who are bouncing, you’re eliminating most people who are just trying to look to see what you’re about, or just maybe followed an erroneous click someplace because you have this highly qualified user. You should be having a deeper experie, ultimately ending with a higher conversion and more people purchasing. So, and many times a higher AOV as well. So I’d look at those four or five that we mentioned and, and try to track those. If they’re going down in correlation to your normal visitor, your normal baseline analytics, then there might be a little bit of a problem. You should be a be definitely a little bit better, highly qualified user returning to your website with an ad that is tailored to them, should yield a more highly qualified purchase as well.

Arlen
[02:25:59]
Great, great. Yeah. Thanks for sharing those different KPIs and it makes sense. The bottom line is, yeah, these are people that have already visited your site. They’re coming back because they’ve been fed or retargeted at. And so, you know, nine times outta 10, their conversion rates should be a little bit higher, cuz they’ve taken the time to come back and look at your products, your services,

Kyle
[02:26:19]
And then go, if I can say one more thing. I know we wanna wrap up, but I just, just recall this. We talked about Dr. Martins and, and the things we did there. One of the things that we found really interest was a higher price point, a more considered purchase, almost nice to have not a must have product like our higher end boots or whether it was a collaboration or a limited edition product or higher end leather, whatever it might be. Those items typically had a higher, a higher conversion rate using retargeted ads with a specific product in mind, not just a general one, but Hey, you visited this thing. It was a higher AOV and therefore it might be such a considered purchase you might wanna leave, but then you nudge ’em a little bit and say, yeah, you really want this. You found out that the higher price point, the more conversion were yielded through retargeting than a normal ad than a normal retargeting ad or normal advertising in general. So I always find that fascinating typically, and that was, that was that one use case, but man, that was, that was cool to see.

Arlen
[02:27:16]
Yeah. That’s very interesting you thinking about that. You, that’s not something that you probably would’ve expected prior to that, to do an that campaign, but oh, not at all. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Good stuff. Yeah. It’s just another avenue of, you know, getting more data and helping your brand make specific decisions really with regards to your marketing and your messaging. I think that’s the bottom line. It’s just giving you more, more data to make decisions for

Kyle
[02:27:41]
Sure. Absolutely. I used to say that, you know, if you, if you use you’re the smartest person in the room.

Arlen
[02:27:45]
Yep. This is, that is so true. Definitely more so today than ever. That’s

Kyle
[02:27:49]
Right.

Arlen
[02:27:50]
Well, it’s been awesome talking to you, Kyle. I, I’ve definitely learned a lot special, definitely a refreshing episode for our listeners and I know hopefully they have as well, but I always like to shift gears and my last questions just so our audience can get to know you a little bit better. So if you don’t letting us know kind of a closing fun fact that you think our audience would be interested to know about you.

Kyle
[02:28:12]
Oh gosh, you surprised me with that one? I would just say I’m just a, a normal bloke hanging out in South Carolina with, with my wife. I think the most interesting thing about me, I surrounded myself with really, really great people in my business and personal a life I’m married to Billy Graham’s granddaughter. Some people find that interesting. Oh

Arlen
[02:28:29]
Wow.

Kyle
[02:28:29]
To me, she, my loving wife. OK. I think people find it interesting that I did come from that magazine background. It was a triathlon magazine, you know, I’m still active today. Not necessarily in that sport, but that kind of launched everything I’ve done. So maybe between the two, maybe somebody could find a grain interestingness in there.

Arlen
[02:28:47]
Definitely. You know, we all have the interesting stories, you know, I’ve talked to so many people on the podcast and I’ve gotten some interesting fun facts, so yeah. Good stuff. Yeah. You’ve definitely got a diverse background, like I said, and I think a lot of what you did prior has kind of shaped you to where we are today and this whole digital space. And it, I know it’s helped you a lot tremendously. Oh. Also very interesting. Married to Billy Graham’s granddaughter. Okay. Yes. That’s definitely something to take note of for sure. Well, that’s awesome. Well, thanks for sharing all of that, Kyle. I appreciate it. But lastly, before we let you go, if any of our listeners wanna reach out to you, pick your brain anymore about retargeting or, or anything in the digital marketing space, what’s the best way for them to read you?

Kyle
[02:29:27]
Best way to reach me is Kyle, the brand leader.com. Nowadays I run a fantastic branding agency. We pretty much focus on strategy and design, but we do have, we do have experience in, in marketing. And obviously we have some developers here that develop what we design. We’ve got some great partners that we work with in digital marketing as well, more on the kind of outdoor, active lifestyle side of things. But yeah, for the most part, if anyone wants to talk to us, [email protected], I encourage people to just check out the website, let me know what you think. We spend a lot of time on crafting our own personal brand here at the business. So yeah, the brand leader.com.

Arlen
[03:30:03]
All right. That’s awesome. Thank you for sharing that. I definitely encourage all of our listeners to reach out to you check out your website as well. Well, thanks again, Kyle, for joining us today, I’ve learned a lot. I hope our listeners as well, and we, we appreciate you coming on the e-commerce marketing podcast.

Kyle
[03:30:17]
Thanks so much, Alan. Have a good one.

Arlen
[03:30:19]
All right. And too,

speaker 1
[03:30:22]
Thank you for listening to the eCommerce marketing podcast. 

Podcast Guest Info

Kyle Duford
Executive Creative Director at The Brand Leader