Arlen: Welcome to the eCommerce marketing podcast. Everyone. I am your host, Arlen Robinson. And today we have a very special guest Damon burden who is a search engine marketing expert. Over a decade ago he beat a billion dollar company by outranking their website on Google. Since then, he knew he was onto something and has gone on to build an international search engine marketing company that’s worked with NBA teams, and Inc 5000 & Shark Tank featured businesses.
Having started his business right before the 2008 recession, Damon is familiar navigating and growing a business through times like today. Never before has there been so many people needing something to focus their attention on… AND the time to do it.
Since founding his company SEO National in 2007, he writes for Forbes, has been featured in publications including Entrepreneur Magazine, BuzzFeed and USA Weekly, and has helped high-profile clients make more in a month than they used to in a year.
Damon: Arlen. Thanks for having me. I look forward to chatting.
Arlen: Yeah, thank you for joining me. I’m super excited about the topic of today because SEO is something that I think every business really out there can avoid. I mean, we’re really at the point where, okay, it’s obvious that no matter what business you’re in, you’ve got to have a web presence.
And in order to be visible with that business, you gotta think about a search engine optimization strategy. Maybe there’s a few exceptions, but I don’t know too many. Ways around that, but it’s definitely something that I think every business has to at least think about and have some type of strategy in place.
So I’m super excited to talk to you a little bit about that and, uh, you know, see what you can have offered to all of our listeners. But of course, before we get into all of that, why don’t you tell us a little bit more about your background and specifically how you got into what you’re doing
Damon: today? Yeah, thanks.
So I’m the president of SEO national. Uh, I’ve been just the SEO guy for a little over 13 years now. And very similar to you before we hit record, we, I started as a web design agency and then made an intentional shift to focus on one thing. And that was SEO. Some of the fun story about how I got into it was.
So I used to be a big car enthusiast. So when I was in my early twenties, I started this car hobby site and it was just kind of a thing for fun. And I kind of stumbled across the server logs. This is kind of before analytics days and noticed that I actually had decent amount of traffic. And so I thought, well, how do I make this better?
So I can get more traffic. So that introduced me into web design and bettering those skills. And then as the traffic continue to increase, I said, well, how do I monetize this? And that got me into marketing. And then. One of the billion dollar story being the billion dollar website stories was, is actually kind of funny.
My wife was watching the bachelor and this was probably 10 years ago and it was the season finale. So for her, it was like, you know, the super bowl and she’s like, Hey, can I? And so. You know, in my limited exposure to it at that time, I didn’t remember at the end of the season, they would just say, you know, look forward to the next guy and kind of leave it at that.
But in this finale, they said, look forward to the next guy. And this is who he is. And they introduced his name kind of ahead of time. And I thought that was interesting. And I don’t remember them doing that before. So I went and was Google in the sky. I didn’t really find a lot. And so I thought, well, that’s interesting that me not really being this audience.
Can’t find anything. So just imagine the people that are loyal followers of the show wanting this. And so I saw a need and I said, babe, I’m going to, I’m going to be up for the next hour or two in the office building a website. And so I just cranked out this website. For this bachelor guy and just put all my SEO.
This was before SEO was my thing, but it was like in the infancy of when I was experimenting with it. So I knew what I was doing. I just didn’t really have the confidence yet to tell that to myself, that I knew what I was doing. And so after that, within a day or two, it was the top search for this bachelor guy.
The top website and my through some ad sense on there. And I was making a couple hundred bucks a day doing nothing. And at that point, that’s when I started to say, Hey, you know, maybe I got something here and it started to roll it out to some of my design clients and has success there. And then that’s when I said, this is my thing.
And then went all in on SEO. Okay.
Arlen: That’s good stuff, man. So it started off from the bachelor. So he knows what direction you would have gone in. If your wife didn’t have you watch that bachelor.
Arlen: you could have been somewhere else at this time. Yeah. That’s an interesting story, man. Thank you for sharing that.
You know, one of the things that I’m always interested in seeing in people’s story is how they’re able to pivot. And especially these days, the way technology is moving. And then you kind of saw an opportunity there, you kind of jumped on it. And, um, like you said, at that time, you may not have known a whole lot about Visio and getting things out there, but definitely it kind of spawned a, uh, a whole, uh, offering that you’re now.
Pretty proficient at. So that’s a, yeah. Good to hear. You know, as far as you mentioned a couple of things, actually in telling that story, one of the things was, of course we have the site out there, they know a whole lot about it, but you were making, you said, you know, a couple of hundred bucks a day or a week, I think you said on the ad sense platform, like Google has.
You know, that’s of course the paper click options. Now, nowadays of course, Google has their Google ads, paperclip options. And you know, there’s a lot of opportunities that way. And I know a lot of eCommerce businesses are, how about people are, you know, they’re focused on that because that’s in a way it’s kind of instant gratification, so to speak because you’re paying to play.
You create your ad, you put the budget out there, you put your click on Mount and Oh, you can be out there depending, of course. I mean, I know it’s not that easy. I’m kind of, kind of simplifying it a lot, but technically that’s what you can do. If, you know, let’s say your unit, a keyword or a particular niche, that’s not really competitive at all.
You know, that’s really what it would take to get out there. And so it’s like, boom, you can see it out there where as. Ranking organically for just the traditional search engines. There’s a lot more to it. It’s just you, you don’t just put up a website and then magically your listings appear, uh, right there.
And so it takes a little bit more work. So I think one of the things that I know a lot of eCommerce businesses are kind of struggling with is they may have some PaperClick campaigns and we get to be generating a certain amount of revenue with that. Their organic rankings are okay. But I think a lot of businesses reach across road where.
They don’t know how to really successfully juggle both. So how does a brand do it and is this something that you often. You deal with, with your clients, juggling PaperClick campaigns, as well as ranking organically for relevant keywords.
Damon: Yeah. The first thing I’ll say is that I’m not the one of the guys that says SEO is the solve ball.
Uh, you know, a lot of other marketers, depending on what niche they’re and they say, you must do Facebook ads. You must do. Google ads, you must do this. You must do that. And everything else sucks. So for my opinion, if they drive a return, then, then do them all or do multiples, but there are certainly pros and cons to them.
So with paid ads, like you said, you nailed it. The advantages that they’re relatively quick, but the downside is that you’re always burning cash. So especially in times, right now with the whole virus thing going on, where people need to stretch their dollar further, or they need to decrease their budget.
Then you end up decreasing your leads. So with SEO, the pros and cons, you know, it too has cons, but really the only con is that it takes time. And maybe as we’re talking, I can get into it further details about why it takes time. But other than that, there’s not really a disadvantage because there’s a couple of things, you know, you pointed out that you’re fighting against budgets, bigger companies, but with SEO.
Sure. Yeah. There’s big companies with big budgets, but it’s not, you have a much more even playing field because. Paid ads, you literally are fighting against their budget. So if you’ve got the big companies with million dollar budgets, like that’s a big uphill battle, but with SEO, if you can bring good content and you know, all these things that maybe we’ll talk about, good site structure, good user experience, then you have a pretty even playing field.
It takes a little bit of time, but if you’re willing to put in the commitment and have the patience to do it, you can fight against those big guys. So the way that I talk to clients, when they say, well, Do I do pay per click or SEO. It depends on their cashflow and how long of a runway they have and how patient they are sometimes for smaller clients.
It makes sense to start with paid ads. For the reason you mentioned that you can turn it on quicker. Now I’m not the paid ads guy, so I don’t do the paid ads, but I can usually connect them with somebody and say, Hey, start here, get some. Positive cashflow falling back in. And then when you have enough of a runway to invest in SEO, which is usually at least six to 12 months, then when you give SEO enough time for it to prove its worth, it tends to be the most profitable form of marketing.
And then the other thing is it’s way more stable. So you had kind of mentioned, you know, there’s a lot that goes into SEO, which is true, but it’s actually pretty stable, at least for my opinion, compared to. Paid ads because paid ads, you have you two still have algorithms that you’re, that are adjusting and changing, but I think we’re paid ads start to get really complex compared to SEO.
And I’m not saying SEO doesn’t get complex, but you always have changing options and features and targets and retargeting and all these different variables that go into your ad score. And you have a constantly evolving budget and you literally have to check in. At least every week, if not every other day, with SEO, once you hit that sweet spot a couple months into it where you’re starting to rank, well, it’s a pretty slow and steady progress where you kind of get into a rhythm and it’s not as wild and dynamic is paid ads.
Arlen: That is so true and interesting that you mentioned that at the end where you said it’s kind of slow and steady improvement of rankings, which is, I think totally. Correct, because it’s just the way that the Google algorithm is. It’s not going to, you’re not going to make a bunch of changes on your site or, you know, get a million links going to your site overnight.
And then your rank is going to shoot up. That doesn’t happen. It’s a gradual progression based on your content, based on the content you have on page, as well as what you’re optimizing off page, as far as your link building. And things like that. So all of that just takes time. It’s really no overnight success, usually with SEO.
So. You know, what’s
Damon: interesting is generally that is exactly the case. It takes time and the abbreviated explanation as to why it takes time is you got a couple of phases you go through. So kind of the first phase is improve your site structure, make it load quicker, make it more mobile friendly, make sure the content is relevant.
And then kind of the next phase is build up your external credibility. Have other websites talk about you and link to you. But. Because of that, the logistics behind that, that’s why it takes time. Right? It takes time to, it makes sense, structure updates and run a new report and make sure I didn’t miss anything.
And that takes time to, you know, writing takes a massive amount of time because you don’t just write, like, first of all way, before you even write, you need to do your keyword research because what are you going to target that you can actually monetize that has. Good search volume. So you’re not just throwing mud at the wall and hoping people search it.
And then also what’s has less competition. So you can drive a profit quicker. Then after you finished that research, then, then you’ve got to figure out, okay, what am I going to talk about to support those targets? Then you actually have to write it. Then you have to distribute it. Then you have to wait for Google to find it.
But what’s interesting is we recently had two new clients that just killed it in a short amount of time. Relative to SEO. So three months, but the advantage they had was they had an existing website with existing content, but it was poorly structured. So that was one of the unique opportunities where we could come in and I did drive a massive return really quickly because we just fixed a couple of things that were already there and made, made them more easily readable to Google.
So one of the companies increase their traffic by 3000% within just a couple of weeks. And then another company that’s in like a blue collar industry. They’re at 750 grand in three months just from cleaning up things like that. Yeah.
Arlen: I’ve heard stories like that before by talking to some of the guests that have been on.
And a lot of times I think with SEO, you will see that initial kind of bump. With just some of the cleanup that you’re going to do. Cause a lot of businesses and sites fall victim to the same thing where there’s just a lot of messy things on page that they just have to clean up with respect to tags and things and referencing on certain pages, broken links.
All of that stuff. Once you clean up that you’re kind of past the first hurdle and then you can get a pretty good bump right there. And then after that, that it’s just more about doing kind of this steady changes, steady on page changes on page content, building off page link building and all of that just in, that’s just going to be the overtime growth.
So, yeah, so very true. And I’ve seen a lot of, a lot of cases like that now for the eCommerce businesses that are listening that. Are kind of foreign to all of this and are maybe thinking about all right, I need to really do something about my organic listings. Maybe I’ve got some steady revenue coming in and just for my PaperClick campaigns, but they kind of hear what you said about getting something more in place for the organic side, just so they can get something a little bit more stable.
What do you think is the first thing that they should do when looking to improve their organic listings? I guess after they’ve month, too. You know, the initial cleanup, which could either be done by just doing some as the audits. I know there’s tools that you can do that, or if they hire an affirm, I know that’s one of the first things that they’re going to do is just a general audit that will, I guess you’d say what’s the next step.
After the basic audit and the cleanup.
Damon: Why don’t I kind of elaborate on that a little bit more before we go to the next phase. So some of the things that you can do to kind of, for the listeners that want to DIY this and kind of tackle some of this on their own, one of the first places you can go to is a website called GT metrics.com.
And it’s just the letters GT. Then Emmy, T R I X. Now this website runs like a page speed report. And I like this one that, you know, another alternative is Google page speed insights. Now the two are both free. The reason why I prefer GT metrics is because it’s more granular. It tells you very specifically like, Hey, this image is bigger than it needs to be, or there’s this thing going on.
And here’s where it is. And here’s why you need to fix it. But for that reason, it’s a little more advanced. So if that’s too advanced, For listener, then they can use Google page speed insights. But to the opposite of that Google page speed insight is a little more vague. And so it doesn’t give you as granular details.
So you might not get very far with actually fixing problems with it. But if you use those tools, you can really identify, what’s kind of crushing your page speed. And the reason why that is important is because Google says, treat us like a visitor. So visitors don’t like slow websites. So neither do we. So we’re going to dinghy for it.
If your competitor’s page speed is better now, what’s also beneficial. Since a lot of these listeners are into paid ads. Is that that will actually help your paid ads because when you’re, you know, whether it’s Facebook or Google and they’re looking at the ad relevancy, they’re also looking at the user experience and that’s going to contribute to your ad score, your quality score.
So if you have a quicker loading, more mobile friendly website, From correcting SEO things, then it can also contribute to a little bit better, lower cost per click on the paid ad side as well. That’s where I’d start now, once you kind of get that done, that the next thing that listeners could do is there’s a lot of complicated things you could get into.
So like, Back links and things like that. So why don’t we kind of focus on the easier things, whoever owns a business or, you know, is listening as an entrepreneur, you’re good at something, right? Like you started a business because you’re passionate about this thing and you’re good at it. Or you’re going to start a business because you’re passionate about that thing.
And so showcase that expertise that you have showcase that passion showcase your experience and focus on content because I’ve seen the most amazingly designed websites that just had. So, so content, or it was like all stock photos. And so you couldn’t really relate. So the image they’re presenting versus a really simplistic website, had good call to action, a good content and just kill it on SEO and conversions.
So don’t overcomplicate the thought of how amazing the design needs to be. Instead, focus on. What you’re good at, which is your area of expertise and communicate that in words, or if you don’t want to write, then do a selfie video and then there’s websites like dot com that you can just drop in that video and it’ll convert it to text.
And so then there you go. Do a 10 minute selfie video, drop it in D script, export the text, and then Polish up that text. The hard work’s done. Just make it. Read better. And then Google will, you know, you can only rank for what Google can read. So it’s important to have this text based content. So I would really just focus on how you can communicate, why you’re the better solution in a non pitchy way, but in like a, a value proposition way, like sure, by my thing.
But like, here’s why, because this is super cool. And it solves these problems for you. Yeah.
Arlen: I’m glad you mentioned that because I think a lot of business owners really struggle with. Just the whole concept of just the content creation. And I hear time and time again about, alright, we’ve got everything off.
The site is running, we’re selling. I know I need to create content, but where do I start? What do I, what content do I create? I’m not a writer. I think you nailed it. When you said they just really have to think about what their expertise is, what is it that they’re offering? What makes them different? And, you know, obviously.
These business owners and small business owners have, they’re passionate about something that’s focused with regards to their product or service. They just need to speak about that. Like you said, in a natural way, a non pitchy way, just informing their audience. Cause that’s, what’s going to make them.
Stand apart. And that’s where it basically their content is birthed. And like you said, there’s a lot of tools that’ll, they could just record something audibly and then have that, you know, automatically dictated and then get it cleaned up. Or they could go the route of outsourcing content creation. You know, if they’re not comfortable with writing a full article or full content, There’s many millions of avenues.
They can go around these days. If they want to go up at freelancing route, there’s tons of sites out there where they can get writers and, um, you know, maybe just come up with a basic outline of what they want out of somebody. Take it from there. So.
Damon: Here’s kind of like a one, two, three step to do exactly that where I would start is, you know, there’s a lot of, like you said, there’s a lot of freelance sites years ago before I brought on in house writers, I used to use a website called dot com.
Just the letter I, and what’s cool about that platform is kind of auction based. So you can say, I don’t want to spend very much. And so then you can kind of choose like the lower tier writers or you can say quality matters more. And so then instead of a $10 piece, it’s like a $20 piece, but you’re exactly right.
And when you said you’d need to create the outline, because if you just give a crappy outline to a writer, they’re going to write a crappy piece of content. So if you want this content to align with your voice, so what I would do is map out your content strategy, assign it to a writer. Then when they send it back, proof it, and then just kind of tweak it and align it with your voice.
And so if you go to, so someone starts maybe saying, okay, well, what do I write about them? How do I create this outline? And so another free tool is answer the public.com. If you go there, you can type in whatever keyword you want to target is. And it’s going to give you kind of like the, who, what, when, where and why of that word.
And it pulls that data from search engines and what people historically search. So that’s your audience telling you exactly what they’re already searching and what pain points they have and what questions they want answered. And so you can use that to create your outline and then present that to a freelance writer, or, you know, if you want to write it on your own, you sell on yourself.
Arlen: that’s a good stuff. Yeah, because that can really, at least initially have the head of these business owners to be able to come up with something. And then I have a writer kind of elaborate on it and then once they get that back, then they can tweak it from there. Yeah. So great. Definitely some great resources with regards to the content creation and the writing now taking it to the next level.
As far as beyond the content creation. And building that on the site. The, of course there’s a whole lot more into it. A lot of this search engine optimization goes. Hand in hand with ranking for certain keywords. And for all of those listeners out there that are, you know, maybe kind of doing this on their own or, you know, making, working with a small team, what would you say are some of the must have tools and resources when you’re looking at that aspect of it, the keyword optimization and knowing what keywords to go after and how to do it.
Damon: The first thing that you kind of want to explore is what keywords have search and buyer intent behind them. So you kind of start and answer to the public or another tool that a lot of listeners will already be familiar with is Google’s keyword planner. And so you can kind of either start one way or the other, maybe put in some words in keyword planner and identify some other alternatives and then put them in answer to the public or go to answer the public punch in a bunch of stuff, and then bring it back to AdWords planner, and then look at how competitive it is.
So what you’re looking for is to align your targets with. Something immediately relevant to what you offer, because then you’re going to convert higher. And then as you can put higher, Google’s going to say, well, Arlen’s website converts really well. So it must be more accurate to this search query. So let’s rank him better for it.
So by targeting something that is relevant tip, it actually helps you. Overall now, after you do that, then you can start to look into if you’re on a desktop, not a mobile, but on a desktop. If you go to Google and you just type in some of these words that come back from that first phase of research, then it’ll tell you how many competing websites show up for that search term.
So also look at how competitive that space is. More than likely you’re going to see millions, millions of results. So don’t be surprised by that. That’s relatively manageable. So if you have anything less than a million websites you’re fighting against, that’s actually relatively easy, you know, a million to five to 10 million kind of average, 10 to 20 million plus is where you get into more competitive space.
Now, what you need to look at is not only the quantity of websites you’re fighting against, but are there any big gorillas right there? Like any big guys you’re fighting against, you know, if you’re in retail or you’re fighting against Amazon or Walmart, Yup. Best your best shot is number three then. So look at not the quantity, but also the quality of the people that you’re fighting against.
And then from there kind of get in a mindset of, okay, here’s my quick wins. Here’s the ones with decent search volume, but way less competition. So I can monetize these. And then here’s these other ones that have more search volume, but so they have a bigger payday, but I’m finding it’s bigger players. So those are my longterm targets.
So you can kind of set realistic expectations to keep the momentum moving forward. Okay,
Arlen: great. Yeah. That’s um, some great resources. I appreciate that. And I think all of those things are, are manageable enough for really anyone to at least do some initial due diligence to see what’s out there where some of their competitors doing.
And then, like you said, doing an initial analysis, are there any huge gorillas in their space that are just going to, trying to eat up everything? Where is there space for them, for these individual businesses that are in the same niche? So you definitely want to. Find out that upfront rather than, you know, kind of spin your wheels in the sand for nothing for sure.
Well, you know, as we get ready to wrap things up, I really wanted to kind of pick your brain a little bit about where you see the future of SEO headed within the next five years. Because, you know, as everyone knows, things are changing so quickly with Google, all of these other search engines and.
Technology just in general. Where do you see it? I know, of course you don’t. No one has a crystal ball, but based on what you’ve seen in the past, where do you think SEO is headed in the
Damon: future? You’ll probably be surprised by my, uh, opinion. So my opinion is the opposite and it is don’t get caught up by the shiny things of the future.
And here’s why, you know, if you think about SEO, it is largely historically now versus in the past. Been at its core, the same things, like the same pillars of fundamentals and that’s good user experience, good content, good external credibility. That’s pretty much it. And so when you look at the new things to come in the example, I always give, when I get this question is voice like you think about voice search and that’s the new thing.
Damon, the future is voice. The future of search engines is voice. But here’s the thing, though. If you think about voice that is, you. Inputting to Google your question. outputting back a result. It’s still based on text. Yeah. Like you’re not getting a response from a website that was built in voice. They’re getting a response of Google that translated a text based answer into voice.
So it is still. Text. It is still a website. It is still good content. It is still a good user experience. So all the things that you have historically heard about SEO are still the same. Google’s just showing it to you differently. So I would still focus on the same core fundamentals of content. Page speed, user experience.
Arlen: that is so true. I don’t think anything has really, over these years, hasn’t really changed that much about that because that’s, that’s the bottom line and that’s what Google’s overall mission is. At least the things that they state Oh. That they want is to provide the best possible experience for the end user, the best possible answers for the questions.
And yeah, it just doesn’t seem like that’s going to change. So yeah. As long as you aligned with those same fundamentals and you try to provide the best experience then yeah. That’s really what you should be focused on for sure. So, um, yeah, you know, that’s been great, David, that you were able to share these kinds of quick wins for companies, as far as, you know, looking at the landscape of SEO and kind of how to get out there initially on some of the tools that, uh, everyone can use based on your experience.
And so we definitely appreciate having you on it’s been awesome. And I know I’ve, I’ve learned a lot, but I always like to close things out with one final. The question where we switched gears a little bit, just so our audience can get to know you a little better. So what does one closing fun facts that you can let our audience know about yourself?
Damon: I used to be a radio guy. Okay. I did radio for seven years. So I was on air in salt Lake city, which is, um, at the time it was about a market 30 radio station, which market means it’s rated on a scale of one to whatever, and, you know, New York being the biggest populated area. So that’s a market one. So it was a pretty decent size market.
And that is actually where a lot of my dabbling, when I said earlier about how do I make my website better? My car enthusiasts website better. That’s where a lot of my time came from is, you know, in between doing your mic thing and talking on the air, you’re just sitting there in the studio for the computer.
So I was, I was working on websites in between and saying radio things.
Arlen: Okay. That’s good stuff, man. Yeah. So it was a full time DJ and then a website SEO guy on the side, digital marketer.
Arlen: That makes a lot of sense. There’s definitely a lot of time to kill in between all of those songs.
Damon: Yeah. I was a Damon Kelly.
That was my name. You know, what’s funny about radio names. Now that I say that she’ll start to pay attention. You know, how there’s that phenomenon where like you buy a new car and then all of a sudden you see that same car over and over and over. Well, it’s kinda like the same thing with radio names. Now that I tell you this, what I’m about to tell you, you’re going to notice it with radio names.
Radio names are usually two first names. Kelly, my boss that brought me on SAC.
Arlen: I never realized that, but you are right about that. Okay. So David said that you just had to come up, you couldn’t be Damon burden online. You had to, they had to switch that.
Damon: I was like 20 at the time. So I was just like, yeah, sure. Whatever I don’t, I’m going to be on radio.
Arlen: Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. So that’s a typical format.
Okay. David Kelly. Okay. Interesting. You’re right in my head. I’m thinking of all of the radio hosts that I hear these days, even on the new format, Sirius XM, which, which I have, and I listened to they’re the same. Yeah. They still follow that same format
Damon: to first names.
Arlen: So, yeah. Good stuff, man. And thanks for sharing that.
I appreciate that. And, uh, you know, finally, no, if any of our listeners want to get a hold of you and, you know, pick your brain anymore about, uh, you know, SEO, digital marketing, and, uh, see how you can assist them, what’s the best way for them to get in contact with you.
Damon: Yeah, I’ve got a couple of options. So LinkedIn is my platform of choice for social media.
So you can find me pretty active on there. And then depending on when this airs I’ll give you two links. One is free SEO book.com. So I just wrote a book on Amazon bestseller called outrank about how to show up higher on search engines without paying for ads. And so on that website, I’m doing free downloads and then.
Depending on when this airs, I’m also doing a free SEO workshop here in a week or two. So if you go to Damon burton.com/workshop, I’m doing a five day SEO workshop.
Arlen: Okay. That is great. Well, yeah, we’ll see if we can take advantage of that. So our listeners can take advantage of that. I appreciate you sharing that.
I will see if we can go ahead and bump this up to get it, to get it out there, published in time for that. And, uh, yeah, so people can definitely, uh, join you on that free workshop.
Damon: I appreciate it Arlen
Arlen: Yeah, not a problem. Well, thank you again, David, for joining us today on the eCommerce marketing podcast.
Damon: My pleasure.
Founder and CEO at SEO National