Marketing Experts Reveal Top Strategies To

Arlen
[00:00:57]
We’ll come back to the e-commerce marketing podcast. Everyone. I am your host Arlen Robinson. And today we have a very special guest David who is the Co-Founder at inBeat Agency and Founder & CEO at Breeeze.co. At his agency InBeat, David helps brands leverage thousands of collaborations with micro-influencers as he knows that people trust user-generated content performs better than studio quality ads. He often works with the leading brands such as New Balance or Nissan to attract new audiences across North America & Europe. He’s known for his unusual strategies when it comes to influencer marketing. Welcome to the podcast, David,

David
[00:01:41]
Thanks for having me Arlen. Really a pleasure to

Arlen
[00:01:42]
Be here. No problem. It’s a pleasure to talking to you. And, you know, I was mentioning before we started recording, we’re definitely hitting on a subject that I’ve talked about quite a bit, as I’ve been in the force affiliate space for a long time with our affiliate software, we’re constantly encouraging our customers to approach influencers because I kind of like the affiliates of today, you’re going to be talking specifically about tapping into micro-influencers and telling us who they are, what they’re all about and why they’re kind of a sweet spot when it comes to influencer marketing. And so, you know, really excited to dig deep into that. But, you know, before we do get into all of that, why don’t you tell us a little bit more about your background and you know, how you got into what you’re doing today?

David
[00:02:23]
So five years ago, right, was running an SEO agency right out of law school turned out. I didn’t want to be an actual lawyer sending years ago. Actually I always say five, but it’s been two years. I’ve been saying five. So yeah, seven years ago. And then started an SEO agency. We ran that for a couple years until the client came to us and asked us really like, Hey guys, I want to tap into that micro influencer marketing thing. I’ve been seeing it a lot around the web and I think it could be worthwhile exploring. So we took a look at it, realized that it looked a lot like link-building in terms of processes where you just outreach discover and negotiate pretty much the same of baseline that you’d see in link building. So we took a shot at it and we realize, oh, this thing actually works well. And there’s definitely a potential market. So fast forward to today, we’re working with 25,000 plus micro-influencers, we’re running a software service to help agencies find influencers and there was no signs of stopping. So that’s where we’re at.

Arlen
[00:03:21]
I thought the man, that’s a great stuff. It’s interesting that, you know, that’s your kind of core area and that’s what you focus on. I really liked that I’ve talked to a lot of agencies before in the, you know, digital marketing space. And a lot of times, you know, a lot of these agencies are still kind of going with the full service model and that’s nothing wrong, nothing wrong with that kind of covering the gamut when it comes to SEO, when it’s coming to a pay-per-click organic rankings, paid ads, all of that, you know, they kind of cover all of that, but it’s good to see that you guys are focused. And again, it’s kind of, one of your main areas is dealing with the micro-influencer marketing, because I think, you know, you can definitely, you know, the way things are these days with the, this is explosion of social media and all of these different platforms that are just, you know, growing and growing day by day, it’s really an area where if you really focus on that with, you know, businesses that are doing business with you guys, you can definitely do very well.

Arlen
[00:04:15]
So that’s good to hear where I want to start off with is just really kind of, you can kind of define, you know, everybody has heard about all these influencers and excited about taking advantage of the reach that they can get. Well, there’s different levels of influencers. And so if you can break it down to us, like what’s a, micro-influencer, you know, what are the different levels of influencers?

David
[00:04:36]
That’s always a tough question, isn’t it? Right? What is a micro split? So that’s always where it really starts, but essentially we define it as 5,000 to 25,000 followers on Instagram. Right. And we’ll define it as a hundred thousand to 250,000 on Tik TOK. Having said that this is not a hard line for a specific campaigns. We’ll target different follower counts. If, you know, for instance, if you’re looking at this, you know, okay, the swipe up is a loss for us. Then, you know, 5,000 to 10,000 doesn’t make sense because you can’t do the Instagram swipe ups. So you’re going to start at 10,000 to 25,000 in that case. And you could even expand to some point at 50,000 followers, right? That’s still pretty micro in. Some people even consider it a hundred thousand followers to be micro, but we stick really in a 5,000 to twenty-five thousand range. The reason being is that we skew heavily towards creating content at an affordable price. So that’s really where we get the best content for our buck and we also get the distribution at it. So it’s kind of a double dip, right. Where we get distribution and we get content assets that we can reuse.

Arlen
[00:05:35]
Yeah. Good. That’s the good stuff. Yeah. And it’s just, when we’re thinking about all of these affiliates, excuse me, of these influencers. Yeah. Naturally when people hear that terminology, I think they’re thinking of the big time people, these big celebrities, the athletes, the people that have big names and the various industries that have made as a millions of followers, but there are what people don’t really understand is that when you think about influencers, really everyone in there in a sense as an influencer, we all have a particular following or people that are in our inner circle are in our little social networks. You know? And so I think like people in our, maybe our levels are, or the average everyday people will be just kind of considered kind of local influencers where, you know, we have the ability to reach people that are friends, colleagues, family members, and, you know, they’ll kind of listen to what we’re saying.

Arlen
[00:06:24]
They may take recommendations of what we recommend and that type of thing. And so it kind of goes all the way down to that very local level. And then it kind of up to what you’re saying to the micro-influencer and then of course gets higher and higher, but definitely a sweet spot. And so we want to, to kind of go with this discussion now is really just with your business and everything that you guys have seen. Why do you think focusing on micro influencers is really such a sweet spot these days, rather than trying to focus on just kind of any influencer.

David
[00:06:53]
It’s always a question that comes up, right. And we focus on micro-influencer for a couple of reasons. First of all, we don’t have to deal with agents that makes things just a lot easier. We deal directly with the people makes the sales cycle or, you know, negotiation cycle that much shorter. We also look at the by-product of what we get out of micro-influencers. So of course there’s the sales awareness component of it, where it’s like, Hey, push traffic to my website, drives sales, conversions, and so forth. But again, we’re looking for content as well. So we’re looking for content that we can reuse and paid media for our clients. So, you know, it’s a good way to power your Facebook ads to have tons of micro-influencers creating content for your paid media channels. And we also looked at the rice and market insights from there.

David
[00:07:33]
So what I mean by that is we asked the influencers questions about trends and product specific questions like, Hey, you know, if you were head of marketing at X company, how would you change the packaging? Or how would you position the products? So we looked at the rive market insights and drive copywriting kind of directions from there. So that’s why micro influencers allow us to scale that much easier because we can get a lot of people actually participating into that mix. And it, it just makes it that easier and much more cost effective on that front. When you’re dealing with the agent, you lose all that. Additionally, you get all the heavy cost structures that are associated with bigger influencers. So we try to stray away from that. So yeah, that’s why micro-influencers is.

Arlen
[00:08:13]
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I was also reading that you worked with a brand in the past and not too long ago called full loops and you employed some micro-influencer marketing strategies for that brand and really grew them. So multi seven figure brand, what specific strategies did you put in place with that company? If you tell us a little bit about them?

David
[00:08:34]
Yeah. So the magic behind that company is twofold. First of all, they’ve got a, you know, an impulse buy product. People can just instantly buy a package, $20 ish in the mail. You get tons of access, $15, I think is probably more where it lands and thinking of Canadian dollars. That’s why, so, and I’m sorry,

Arlen
[00:08:52]
What, what is their product? What exactly do

David
[00:08:54]
They sell phone accessory? Sorry. Cell phone from dropping. Yeah, exactly. So it looks something like this here, right? Like the strap on the back of the phone. Yeah. So how what’s the wrapping, but it’s amazing. Anyway, so yeah, a low cost of good, right. Easy to ship, extremely low cost of good and impulse buy. So with those parameters, right, we just could run a campaign where we could contact thousands and thousands upon thousands of influencers and just send them product and just get them to onboard without checking much about like, you know, we didn’t vet all the influencers all that much, right. Because it’s a numbers game at that point. And then from, from that bunch of products that we ship, some people just spawned as great ambassadors of the brand and we’re just super hyped about it, drove some sales and so forth. So what we did is, you know, we pegged them as V VIP’s, right?

David
[00:09:42]
And from there we just moved forward and doing the same cycle where it take the best ones, ditch, all the ones that are not performing or not even posting content for that matter. Right. And just build a small army of ambassador. And then it turns out you can create content on demand. You can do tons of things with that, and you can activate new product lines itself. Or so I wouldn’t say that it was the only driver behind their growth. There’s a lot more to it, but it was definitely one of those catalysts that you can use to just power the entire business. It really acts as like a decentralized creative team, right. To have all that content, to run ads, to post on social media and so forth. And it just helps the growth. And it’s one of those products that, you know, when you see it, you want it. So essentially the more people have it, like going around with it, then the more sales it drives and so forth. So you can track that with how many people are coming directly to the website or looking for our brand on Google and so forth. So yeah, that’s the story.

Arlen
[01:10:38]
Okay, great. We have that. That’s awesome. Yeah. And it sounds like with a product like that, that kind of lends itself to kind of being available, like you said, to just stop, you know, any type of influence or a micro-influencer, because it’s something that, you know, anyone can use and everyone has a cell phone these days. And so it’s something that they can talk about. They can say that they use various places and they can really push it because it’s something that, you know, like I said, everybody who doesn’t have a cell phone these days, so it’s something that really kind of has gives it a broad appeal. And now there are, of course, other products or other companies that may be selling something that there may be a little bit more niche. And so maybe something that not every type of micro-influencer would be able to effectively push or what a fab, a audience that would give it the proper distribution. What are some strategies for vetting these micro-influencers and trying to find the right one.

David
[01:11:31]
Look, if you’re looking to sell something more, like, it’s always a question like, is, does your product come from like, you know, discovery or interest, right. And then, you know, Google captures that like interest part of the, of the spectrum where you’re looking for something in your you’re looking on Google and you’re trying, okay, well, I’m looking for a painting kit, right? So I go on Google having said that though, you know, people buy the influencers that they follow are showing certain interests, right? So if you’re selling a painting kit, like something more niche, right? Like we’re selling painting kits. Like what you’re going to want to work with is not general influencers followed by anybody. You’re going to want people that, you know, even a couple thousand followers is going to cut it where they they’re like doing water, painting, whatever it is, whatever types of painting.

David
[01:12:11]
And you want to work with these influencers that are extremely targeted to your product offering. And that that’s really how you’re gonna want to vet these influencers. The question you should ask yourself just as a framework is who is following this page, right? Who is following this page? And if the question is, well, probably my target client, then you know, you’ve got to hit. And then that’s, that’s the only question you should be asking yourself. And it’s a good one to ask yourself because a lot of the time, right. You know, you’re going to be like, Hey, you know, we want to promote this a yoga mattress. We have this yoga girl. And like, it turns out we look at their, her audience and surprise, right? There’s tons of guys that are following her. So Amanda are the biggest part of their audience. So you’re not targeting your audience, even though the influencer matches your target persona. So it’s really about answering that question, like who follows this influencer? So I wouldn’t, you know, I wouldn’t follow any water painting pages. I have no interest in it, but you know, people that do will do so.

Arlen
[01:13:07]
Yeah. Very true. Very true. That’s really the bottom line when it comes down to who’s following them. And if that the average person is following them is your demographic, the type of customer you’re trying to reach. Then there you go. You do

David
[01:13:18]
Have a good audience match. Exactly. Yeah.

Arlen
[01:13:21]
Audience match. And you mentioned another thing earlier as well, when you’re dealing with these, micro-influencers, it’s definitely a difference as far as the outreach that you’re doing to try to connect with them maybe a little bit easier, because they’re not at such a level where they’re managed by, like you said, an agency or an agency is pushing these people and forming these connections where they have these gatekeepers in place with micro-influencers most likely they’re, they’re managing all of their own contact and the relations that they build. And so it’s going to be a little bit easier to get in touch with them. And so exactly, that’s definitely a kind of a key thing to consider as well. Now you’ve worked with, you know, of course, a lot of brands and grown them using this micro-influencer strategy. So you’ve kind of seen a lot and there’s been a lot of lessons to learn over the years. So what are some mistakes that you think brands have made or lessons learned that you’ve made that you’ve learned growing different brands and then kind of what were some kind of actionable items that you learned in results of these, these lessons

David
[01:14:20]
Kind of the secret life of the agency? Isn’t it learning on your client’s background, but essentially in terms of learnings, like the biggest one is probably positioning. What I mean by that is getting your product in the hands of influencers is one thing, getting your positioning off is going to destroy any campaign effort, whether you execute perfectly on everything else. What I mean, positioning, I mean, what are the benefits? What are the unique selling propositions? What’s the deal you’re offering? What is the way you’re actually positioning the product in the image? What do you want the influencer to be showing when they do the posts and so forth? Are these things that are going to, it’s just like running a bad influencer. Collaboration is just like running a bad Facebook ad, right? If you didn’t nail it, it’s not going to work. So that’s really, the biggest thing I’ve noticed is if you don’t get positioning, right, and you get lazy on that part, everything else crumbles, then it just makes for a bad campaign.

Arlen
[01:15:11]
Gotcha. Gotcha. That makes sense. As you’re talking about that, one of the things came to mind, it’s kind of like a discussion that I’ve had with somebody else was on a podcast when it comes to vetting. These influences, of course, you know, you’re looking for people that have that right match. And of course we have your audience, then, you know, it seems like a good match at a micro-influencer level. How important is it to find someone that as far as when you’re vetting them to find out what things there they are and they aren’t associated with. Cause it could be certain things that, that influencer micro-influencer is associated with that you’d really don’t want to be a part of. Like, let’s say for instance, you, within your particular company, you know, support any type of the use of cannabis, for instance, cause you know, certain subjects like that or gambling, that type of thing. But then one of these micro influencers, let’s just say they support that or they’re doing some type of promotion. We have, you know, maybe they’re using cannabis, but they’re also promoting your product. Should that be a concern?

David
[01:16:12]
I mean, depends on your brand guidelines. Right? We have brands that are like, okay, you know, we don’t accept any influencers with an only fan account. Right. That’s a big no-no for them. So, you know, depends on your brand guidelines. How far you want to stretch it during the Trump era. Right. We’ve seen a lot of clients that were like, Hey, we don’t want any thing. Like that’s like political. So it was nothing either side of the spectrum. Nope. Influencers that were political. Right? So you get these kind of like asks and it’s, it really depends on where you want to take the brand, how you want to communicate as a brand because some brands are the complete opposite, right? Like they embrace these things, right. They embrace these and they grow on these things and it’s both strategies are probably viable in our own ways. It really depends. So I’d say it really depends on how you want to portray your brand. They’re going to be carriers of your message. And you have to be aware of that. But personally, I don’t mind it too much unless you have something. I kept someone who who’s extremely racist or something like that in their, in their content. And of course that doesn’t make any sense, but you know, you’re using cannabis or, you know, you’re, it doesn’t matter to me personally, but then again, we represent the brand. So we represent the brands,

Arlen
[01:17:22]
Right? Ultimately it comes down to what the brand is open to accepting. And how far do they want to go with it? Yeah. I’m just curious. It’s just, cause we’re kind of in a day and age where we’re in this whole kind of cancel culture, if you will. And if a particular individual, somebody that’s prominent in whatever industry, whatever they say, the wrong thing, they do the wrong thing then, you know, making can cancel. Then that could be a big thing. Brands. These days are quick, this associate themselves from both individuals in a heartbeat because they know the blow back from discussions on Twitter and what they can get from the social media backlash can be, it can really hurt a company really, really can. So it’s crazy.

David
[01:18:07]
It’s ridiculous. Right? It’s you look at that and you’re like, oh, this is like this calls for higher levels of brand safety for a lot of brands.

Arlen
[01:18:14]
Right. Very true. The David had to get ready to wrap things up. I wanted to see if there was any examples of video, other businesses that you’re familiar with, that you’ve either worked with or just in familiar with in general that, you know, have employed a, a specific influencer marketing strategy and maybe they did something unique that really caused their whole campaign to really just explode there’s anything you can highlight or point out.

David
[01:18:40]
I got a couple of brands that I just love. Right. You know, you’ve got ritual of, they’re both in like this wellness supplement space and they they’re crushing it. Right. They’re selling the same thing that you’re used to seeing, but they’re just doing it in such a good way. They’ve packaged it packaged brilliantly if positioned brilliantly and they execute amazingly well on what you’d call ambassadors slash influencer marketing. It’s beautiful to watch. And you know, it’s definitely, we pull inspiration from companies like that and all the time. Right. That’s what we follow them. We, we just learned from them. So. Yeah.

Arlen
[01:19:13]
Okay. That’s awesome. One last question. What I’d asked you though, was just thought about that’s really comes up a lot when you’re dealing with not only, and I know in our business, it’s a common question as far as affiliates are concerned. And I think influencers kind of under the same category, how does a brand decide, determine the right incentive to pay these particular micro-influencers? Is there a particular rule of thumb or that employ or is it something that’s dictated by the micro-influencer? What do you see so

David
[01:19:40]
Well or your brand, the more Goodwill you’ve got, the more you’ll get away with, you know, just product exchange that’s okay. So, you know, if your brand is cool and people are like, because this is a bilateral relationship for these micro-influencers to be associated with brands that look great and feel great is marketing for them essentially, or they’re trying to make it to that other stage. Right. So that’s one of the things to take into consideration what I’d recommend everyone doing. And it’s just like email a hundred influencers, just email them and negotiate. Right. It’s kind of link building. How much do you pay for a link for a website that has a domain authority of 50 to 70, right. Well, how much is that worth? Well, email a hundred of them and you’ll find out how fast, you know, how much it’s worth. Right. And that’s really the game it’s, it’s going to change per vertical. If you’re doing FinTech, if you’re doing financial products, it’s going to change dramatically. And if you’re trying to sell something gambling, then you’re, you’re going to pay like 20 times what you’re you’re looking to.

Arlen
[02:20:36]
Gotcha. Gotcha. So it sounds like it just really is going to vary depending on that influencer and you, you know, you of course can negotiate with them, but it’s like you said, it is, if you have a cooler brand, if you have a particular product or service that you think a lot of people want to be around and, and be a part of, you could maybe get away with just exchanging product with them because you know, they want to be associated with your product because that’s going to help them get to their next level, which is the higher level of an influencer where they

David
[02:21:05]
Arlen and exactly the right frame of mind, like what’s in it for them, what’s in it for me. Right. It’s like the basic level of copywriting is like, think about what’s in it for them. And then if you can build, we look at it from like a perceived value versus like a, you know, monetary value kind of framework is like, you know, if you, the more perceived value you can build, like you’re giving to save the ocean, you’re helping some minorities thrive or whatever you’re doing as a brand, all these things add up in terms of perceived value. And that allows you to build a huge chunk of Goodwill that you can just leverage and create amazing relationships without having to break the bank. So.

Arlen
[02:21:42]
Gotcha. Yeah. That’s all. That’s awesome. So yeah, it just sounds like yet every type of relationship, it’s good that you’re going to form with these micro influencers. You can really kind of structure it however you want. And it just whatever’s really, you feel is going to be a win-win for you and that micro influencer, you can come up with something that will meet both of your needs. So there’s really, this sounds like there’s really no kind of general rule of foam saying you have to pay somebody to give them this percentage of commission. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. And that’s good to know. So David has definitely been the awesome talking to you. I’ve definitely learned a lot. I can talk about influencer marketing for hours and hours. So it’s a, it’s a hot subject. And so as opposed to having you on, and I know I’ve learned a lot and hopefully our listeners have as well and we’ll, but lastly, before we do let you go, I always like to close with the kind of closing fun fact questions, just so I can audio our audience, get to know you a little bit better.

Arlen
[02:22:32]
If you don’t mind sharing one closing fun fact about yourself that you think people will be interested to know,

David
[02:22:38]
Oh God, I hate these questions. Right. I mean, yeah. So I, I was almost a lawyer. Right, right. That’s really one of those things in life that God, I hated it.

Arlen
[02:22:48]
Okay. That’s interesting. Yeah. I, over from law to a digital marketing agency, that’s definitely a switch.

David
[02:22:55]
Yeah. But digital marketing agency is like, you know, that low hanging fruit when you’re starting out. Right. Hey, let’s sell websites to local businesses and then just like unlocks and then you don’t know anything, but it’s like the easy kind of way into this digital space for us. It was at least. And it turns out, you know, you just learn and learn and the learnings build on top of one another and yeah, I just wanted out of law.

Arlen
[02:23:18]
Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, thanks for sharing that. That’s, that’s good to know. And it’s good that, you know, you made that choice before you got too deep into it. Cause I know a lot of people go down certain routes as far as they’re concerned and you know, they ended up regretting it and then they get in where it’s just like too late, you know? I mean, it’s always switched, but you know, as you get more and more responsibilities, you get a family, your kids, you get to a point where it’s, it’s hard to make movies.

David
[02:23:42]
Thank God I’m in Canada for the tuition fees I’ve heard in the states. So I’ve heard your tuition fees for law school are pretty high. So

Arlen
[02:23:51]
Yeah. Yeah, by the way, actually. So in Canada, how was it structured for LA

David
[02:23:55]
For law school? Like the whole program kind of thing in Quebec at least is probably like, you know, with books and everything for three-year program, you’re probably talking like 15,000 Canadians, so like 11,000 us dollars. So yeah. That’s for three.

Arlen
[02:24:11]
That’s crazy. Yeah. Here the U S I think we’re, that’s some of the top law schools. I think we’re talking, whoops. We’re looking at 60, 80, a hundred thousand dollars for that whole time. Wow.

David
[02:24:22]
That’s crazy. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a different world. I would have probably been a lawyer. Right. It’s like I’m in debt.

Arlen
[02:24:29]
Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Well, that’s good to know. Or anybody listening, that’s thinking about law school and then doesn’t necessarily have the resources, you know, maybe consider going to Canada. Never know. All right. Great. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. And it was awesome talking to you, but lastly, before we do let you go, if any of our listeners want to reach out to you and connect, pick your brain, what’s the best way for them to know

David
[02:24:52]
And beat that agency. You can book a call there, send me an email as well. David, at beat that agency and beat is I N B E a T by the way. So our on LinkedIn, David Moore Moreno, David M O R N E a U more know. So yeah, that’s it. And I’m always open to geek out about this stuff. Really love it. So feel free to just book a call and we’ll chat.

Arlen
[02:25:14]
That’s true. All right. That sounds great. Well, I definitely encourage our listeners to reach out to you in beat that agency. We’ll have the link in the show notes and in a transcript, and it’s definitely a pleasure talking to you, David. Thank you for joining us today on the e-commerce marketing podcast.

David
[02:25:27]
Pleasure was mine. Thanks for having me on

speaker 1
[02:25:31]
Thank you for listening to the e-commerce marketing podcast. 

Podcast Guest Info

David Morneau
Co-Founder at inBeat Agency and Founder & CEO at Breeeze.co