Sam Mallikarjunan is the head of marketing at BirdEye.com, the world's leading reputation marketing and customer experience platform. Sam is the former Head of Growth at HubSpot Labs and taught Advanced Digital Marketing at the Harvard Division of Continuing Education. He is also the co-author of the book "How To Sell Better Than Amazon" (which, thanks to the publisher, is ironically available for purchase on Amazon).
Welcome to the podcast Sam. Thanks for having me out. All right. You can't go anywhere these days without seeing anything being affected or being touched by Amazon, you know people don't even realize how much right because not only does Amazon power things like, you know, amazon.com website, but you can go to birdeye.com.
We're host on Amazon web services, right? So like yeah Amazon is huge and very impactful for some Our Lives they are they are and you know, I always have debates about that with people is it good or is it bad? You know, they're they're swallowing up, you know so many things and is it, you know, are they helping small businesses or are they hurting the mom-and-pop spots?
It's I don't know. I guess the future will will be the judge of that. But all I know is I'm a big I'm a big amazon fan. I I've got delivery guys coming to my door every. He said every day. Okay, because it saves me so much time, you know, I don't have to go out by and stuff. I'm the same way. Not only that right like you, you know, it's that trust.
It's an ease of use, right? So, you know, I we I read a survey of all back on like why do people actually use Amazon right? It's not actually even because of the price and it's not as Jeff Bezos. Wants us to believe that they help people make customers decisions. It's one of his famous quotes. It's just because this site the whole process is ludicrously because you use it is you can get whatever you want.
It's crazy to you. So I shop at Amazon. It's on to I'm a big fan of Jeff Bezos as a strategic business leader, but there is also like the rest of the world that we that there are ways in which we can be competitive right for sure for sure. Okay, Sam will you know before we get started, you know, why don't you know going to be talking today a little bit about increasing customer.
Tension and the you know, improving the long-term value of your customers and or the lifetime value of your customers rather. But before we get into all of that, why don't you tell our audience a little bit about your background and how you got started and you know, how you got into what you're doing today.
That would have to go back. So I would have to go back two hours of the host of an AM/FM talk radio show about scotch and cigars told. Oh wow, and I ended up just a cigar industry, but you know bangs back in like, you know the air. Into early 2000s didn't wasn't really technically sophisticated.
And so they were asking me like people were like, hey, you know this internet thing or external. Yeah. I don't know the internet works and you know, can you go this website and so I built them websites, you know, just get them rolling but then you know building somebody website or selling somebody a product isn't enough right?
They have to be successful with it. They have to enjoy it and like it otherwise you're not going to be able to sell it to more people in the future and you're never going to be able to sell anything to those same people again, right? And so they're like, hey, we both the website were not getting any sale.
My all right. Well, I don't have a background in marketing. I started in Computer Engineering and then you know, I did a little bit in sales and I was a radio show host. So I started Googling around like you know, how do I sell stuff online and I found this company called HubSpot and then this great blog and then these webinars and everything else.
Like I self-taught myself off of functional types of blog articles ebooks and webinar. Wow, and then, you know at some point that our radio show got cancelled by the station. Not room in these cigar industry for more than one radio show there was a bigger better one and so I built a website called hire me home spot.com and I launched ads targeting people who worked at HubSpot register for the free webinar on why you should hire me.
Okay, and it works it took me three hours and 26 minutes to get a call from the recruiter. Okay, and then you know that that rest bit is history. I was there for seven years, you know and. A wonderful career there and then now the - you know, the essence of great leadership is trust and that's what do you really boil it down to its trust my boss kept on him.
CMO always told me that if I ever wanted to leave HubSpot to tell him and that he would help me find a really great next gig and so he and I looked at a hundred forty four different companies that fit a certain certain criteria, like post Series be pre-ipo doesn't have CML stuff. Right and we found the right and so now I'm here and.
The reason we had to delay this podcast for last week is because I've just moved to Dallas and taking over the marketing team here. Okay. Gotcha. That's that is quite a story. I mean, I definitely do applaud you for that that effort of getting hired by HubSpot. I mean that is a true go get em to Story.
I mean you you basically had your eyes fixated on where you wanted to be you created this site and you got their attention. And yeah, so I mean, it's just a testament to the. Back that if you know if you want something if you want to be somewhere, you know these days there's and that's the power of the internet there.
No these days there's so many things that you can do to get a kind of get out there and get noticed, you know, there's really almost no excuse to if you want to get in the door somewhere. I mean, I know of course some some doors, of course, there'll easier to get into than others. But you know, if you want to get there you can you can definitely do that.
So I don't apologize the ironic thing, right? So a lot of your listeners. You probably read you know the innovators dilemma by Clay Christensen and I have my own like a little mix on that right which is it's really easy to be Innovative when things are going well and you're breathing room and it's and it's really easy to be Innovative when things are going really poorly.
I do have no choice. So that's where I was with without spot, right? Because I was College Dropout with no significant marketing experience. Other than literally what I had learned from their own blog and HubSpot was a company that had a rejection rate of application. And higher than that of Harvard University.
Oh, wow. So it literally easier to get in Harvard University wants to get hired at HubSpot. Okay, really? I do. I didn't think it was going to work, right, you know, and I had no choice and so I was able to be Innovative. The irony is if I had actually been qualified for the job which I wasn't going to send in a resume or probably got hired OK like that's like the the interesting thing is like the really difficult part is when you are actually qualified for the job.
Yeah still still taking that chance still trying to do something different. Instead of instead of just going with that what everybody else does? Yeah, that's the true that totally makes sense. Cause like you said if you're qualified, you know go through the normal channels and then you kind of get in the mix and you still have to try to set yourself apart from everyone else all of the other hundreds and thousands of resumes that are coming through so that's yeah that is definitely a challenge in the limo.
So, you know the topic for the day that we're going to be talking about is, you know, really trying to leverage your current customers value and you know, How you can increase your Revenue by, you know leveraging those current customers that you have and now I know a lot of our listeners these days are constantly hearing about this customer retention this customer attention that lifetime value but you know for the average customer why we just kind of started the beginning and really set a groundwork and.
Figure out. Okay, how would an actual average e-commerce company determine the lifetime value of their customers? You know what process should they take? Yeah. So I mean the the map on it is relatively straightforward rights. How often are they paying you and how much are they paying you and then you can get a little bit more complicated and control for things like the rate of discount.
You don't necessarily have to do that the big issue there right? And then you also definitely want to make sure you're controlling your profit margin. So I. How much are they paying you you have to add in your profit market right Starbucks is the classic example that I love to use. All right. So they've got kids kissmetrics did a great study on them while back they've got an average order value like five dollars and ninety cents or something.
Hmm. And for a lot of e-comm shops aov is really what we solve for. How do we get you to add more to your basket, you know, just get that initial burst of Revenue, but you look at Starbucks one of you know, the most successful companies in the last 20 years. And they have like these leather chairs.
They've got great Wi-Fi up in Boston. They have like fireplace and stuff like that. Right and it's because if you're a Starbucks marketer, you're not looking at that $5.90 you looking at the average lifetime value of that customer, which is. $14,000. Wow, so you're not trying to spend $2 to sell six bucks worth of coffee and food which spending like 2,000 or 3,000 or maybe five thousand dollars to acquire in routine a $14,000 customer and that is what creates competitive Advantage because you go into some of the other coffee shops in the world are some of the other options right?
Like the reason Starbucks has so many locations and they can invest so much in customer. In and have such a great experience inside the store is because the ridiculously good at keeping customers. So I guess that's the primary lesson here is it's you know, the world of marketing has gotten way way harder as more people have, you know jumped into it and also as we've gotten better understanding of it the real Leverage is if you're really good at keeping customers you can spend more to get customers Starbucks can spend more to get a coffee drinker and in.
You know to start coming to Starbucks than any other coffee shop in the world not because they have a better marketing team, but because their retention team is ridiculously good at keeping them. Sure. Yeah that that makes sense that that's totally plain and I understand that that analogy with Starbucks they can afford to spend that extra on you know, their whole Ambiance like you said the leather chairs the great Wi-Fi, you know, everything that they do on the interior because they know those customers that are coming are going to.
For it in the long term. Yes, because you know, they do a great job at it most of the customers that come to Starbucks. You really hear people that sell, you know, I used to like Starbucks, but you know, I really don't like it anymore. I everybody I usually talk to that that is Starbucks coffee drinker still, you know still is at this time, you know, they haven't switched.
So yeah, they've done a great job at that and that that really, you know, totally makes it plain now and that as far as the average e-commerce. Of course customer, you know these days looking and kind of deciding, you know, once you determine what the lifetime value is of a customer then that can help you determine.
All right, you know, what can I do as far as marketing? You know, how big can my marketing budget be am I going to be able to afford it based on the value that my customers are going to bring can I increase the budget? Can I do other things? Can I bring on more expensive products, you know things like that.
Those are always going to be questions. But one of the things that kind of want to get into is, you know, what would be some some strategies actually for keeping customers, especially these days in the whole world of no loyalty because these days are so many options, you know, everybody's always looking to get the best deal.
So, you know, how do you really keep customers in this whole crazy competitive world? So the world is. Competitive especially in marketing and you know for the listeners, you're probably you may not think this but you're probably pretty good at marketing. Even you know, there's always room to improve but you know, that's you're good at your job there.
I wouldn't say that that we have no loyalty right because I think about well, I mean we can use Starbucks or I think about Netflix or I think about you know, Delta. Yeah, you know these these like large not particularly cool Brands like Delta it right? I'm ridiculously loyal to Delta. Okay, not because of not because they.
Just tickets right? I can get cheaper tickets if I just go on, you know Expedia or whatever. It's because of the customer experience I've had with them. All right, so when you know when when my grandfather passed away and being in the year, there's a whole, you know, when you've got a family member who's passed away.
He was in a completely different state. There's a lot of like back and forth. Right like, you know, because you've you're never quite sure when it's going to happen and Delta I was traveling giving keynote speeches at the time was just crazy fast on Twitter like I would send them a DM and be like, hey guys.
I need to be in Milwaukee and like you know 12 hours. Can you guys like change my itinerary and get done? Okay, and it would get it done and they would waive all the fees. Right and they were just like do whatever it takes and that's such a it's such a meaningful interaction. And by the way, not just that they always they would always be sympathetic, you know the person on the other on the other and Twitter doesn't just say like thank you for your inquiry sir.
Yes. I have changed your ticket. But oh no, I'm so sorry about that. You know my own grandfather passed away last year like, you know it real human relationship with a company like Delta like come on. You know and and it is really like, you know, the humanization of the brand and building that sense, you know, they lost money on me and some of these transactions because they didn't charge me fees.
They probably could have I would have paid the fee right but they just didn't do it and they could have made me call in but they adapted to the world that I like to live in which is going to Twitter and Twitter direct messages. Right and the any hand that loyalty so that's that's one way right is like to really invest and you know the.
Into this model is United where you know you think about United you don't think about the excellent experiences. You've heard about their customers having right and for them to it's like solving for margin solving for Speed everything else like that. So that's definitely one way right as you have to rethink your you to rethink the way you approach defining the the economic value of each interaction.
It's is it worth me giving this customer, you know waving the $25 fee proactively without them even asking. And being a pathetic and investing in people who do social media in order to get that retention, right? And then you've also got companies like another favorite model is like Netflix. The reason I love Netflix is that I have read it over 900 movies for Netflix.
Wow, most of us would kill to get our customers to fill out a 900 question brought up survey. The reason I've done it though is because I know that when I do it Netflix is going to use that information to make. Experience better. Okay, which means that the longer I stick around that the company the more valuable my relationship with that company is to me.
Hmm. So even if you rolled out a better streaming service that was cheaper. I said wouldn't leave Netflix. Okay, because Netflix has done what you know, the mom-and-pop corner store used to do with human intelligence, which is just that you know, Jimmy the store owner just knew Ashley the customer and what she wanted.
Netflix has gone that direction so Ashley, even if there was a cheaper whatever hipper coffee shop that opened up she was really good because Jimmy Jimmy knew you know, what's she like? Yeah. So there's that sort of like philosophical approach and then there's the practical application of you've gotta have something you can sell more than once right so that either.
You know coffee is a good example because we drink it get addicted and have to drink more right or you can or you need to be able to celebrate right? So either something that like these subscription models are super popular right now. It's a hundred percent because they know that that lifetime that if the subscriptions are the easiest thing for lifetime value nurturing, you know, they know that they can know that but you either have to solve that recurring revenue or you have to solve breaths of Revenue and own an entire buyer Persona, right?
Right, so. If you sell me, you know, if you're like a fixity cam shop, right? It doesn't matter that I have that you carry a hundred thousand different types of drills because Amazon is going to win that game. They're going to carry a hunt 200,000 types of drugs right death matters is that you carry, you know a good enough drill, but also good enough hammer and also good enough selection of nails and then I come to you for maybe drill or whatever and then you can you can cross sell me into all these different things because.
You're not you're not a drill bit company. Mmm. You are a company that salt's my pain of, you know, building a deck like I'm a handyman are whether it's professional or personal so that sort of breath is something that a lot of e-comm shops. Don't try to do they try to solve for. Have really deep product catalog instead of trying to go wide and own all the different types of things that a Persona might warm.
Right right, you mentioned early on you mentioned one thing. I think that's key that some of these larger companies are doing like you mentioned the Delta example, and it's the it's the humanization and the personalization of their interaction with their customers. I actually had another guest on previously where we talked about the storytelling aspect of.
Messaging and how you can incorporate, you know, personal personal stories, you know, either from people that working within the company or how your brand got started all of those things. I think are definitely great ways to to keep people engaged because you know, you mentioned that experience you had with Delta where as opposed to the, you know, just getting kind of a standardized response via Twitter.
It was actually a human on the other end that sympathize you know with the passing of your ground. There and you know related to that and then gave you more of a warm response and that you know, those things go a long way because like you said if you have that type of personal interaction with your your customers, they're gonna you know, they're like you said if there's another company that comes around even if their pricing is a little bit more competitive you probably would stay with that company that's giving you that that personalization and that interaction because you kind of feel like you're you're part of them and they really look, For you, so I that that totally makes sense.
Now, you know one of the things that I know product based companies companies that are selling actual products. It can be difficult and you mentioned a couple of things difficult to try to get customers to of course make repeat purchases and repeat sales. I know of course we talked about the.
Subscription model is kind of a huge thing. But you know, I've seen the kind of a hit or miss with that and and how customers adopt that. I know from my personal experiences a lot of times. Even if it's a product. I know I'm going to need more of I don't necessarily want to just commit to being on the hook every month for that because I know you know, maybe more month.
I'm not going to use as much of the product. And so if they're struggling with going that subscription route, you know, what are some other things they can do. To really kind of increase, you know repeat sales. So the subscription model is not necessarily the best way. It's just the easiest for the business, right?
Because the math is ludicrously easy. It's just what's their subscription rate per month? What's the margin and how what's your turn? Right right. It's the it's very very simple simple equation. And it's also you look at the valuations of econ companies in particular right especially ones that are publicly traded and things like that.
Look at the valuations of all these companies the reason subscription companies tend to get a higher valuation is because both the business and the market have more confidence that track that that transaction is going to come back, you know, because I have you have already pre agreed to have me rebill you on the 13th of every month everything.
So that's the only reason subscription is superior if you can solve that problem, right? So like yeah, like they're not going to need it next month, but then the next month after that they'll need it two times or whatever without. A subscription commitment you're golden. And this is one of the reasons Amazon actually does have such a high valuation even though they don't generally they have some subscription options.
That's not most of their revenue right is because the market is very confident that people who buy from Amazon once are going to keep coming back and they don't need Amazon to get all of us to agree to monthly terms for them to have that same level of confidence. So then the question is right. How do.
How do you build that that relationship with the customer to know that and to nurture that and part of that does come from humanization in it comes from the understanding of the customer like Netflix the better you can understand them the better you can give decisions and in building your your marketing around them, right?
Not you so marketers are why we can't have nice things, right? All right marketers marketers ruin the internet. Purpose of marketing right and in marketing Automation and online marketing thing that was so exciting was that we could scale Larry. So Larry if you I don't know if you are going to put my profile picture on this interview, but I'm bald right right there.
He's my barber. Okay, but I was not always bald. I would go to Larry and you know, he turned me off whatever and I went in for a couple years and he would ask me questions he knew about my profession he knew about my life because you know, the barbershop is kind of like Adult Day Care of my wife.
Often pick me up later, huh? It is you really knew me and then at one point at one time, he sits me down. He looks at my my head. He's like, you know, he's Boston town. He says got the accent. It's like you gotta let it go. Kiddo. You gotta let go you're bald like Larry's not bald. He's like, no bald would look like what you have the look so good.
Okay, and he actually talked me into into becoming like a bug. I like I shave my head now because of that. And you know, Jeff Bezos is the famous quote. We don't make money when we sell things you make money when we help people make purchase decisions in my experience Like Larry is the best at that because that's not a decision.
I ever would have made if I didn't have that trust if he didn't understand me and part of that trust by the way was based off the fact that I had just told him a lot. So I knew that he actually that he at least had contacts because he asked some of these questions right and now the goal of marketing Automation and blogging and all this stuff.
Is the letter company scale Larry, right? How do we have a hundred thousand of the Alaric only have like a hundred of those regulars now, we have a hundred thousand of those interactions per month. What we did instead is we scaled Sam from you know, 2006 where I you know, those really annoying people in the mall who harass you and translate your cell phone.
No. Yeah, I used to train those people. Okay, and you know instead of scaling Larry we scaled Sam. Okay, I can't front. Do that that pitch in Spanish, even though I don't speak Spanish. Oh, wow, because all I did was I learned the pitch and this is how we treat email marketing for example, right?
The reason I could do the pitch in Spanish is because I didn't need to understand Spanish because I didn't care what the person said next to me. I see I was just going to say the thing and they I was going to keep saying what I was going to say and they're either going to buy or not. Right? And this is what we treat email marketing.
Right. We said you this email and then like you either buy or don't if you if you don't buy we send you the next email and we just keep so that's the thing that we've got to get really good at is how do we invest in scaling Larry and and not and not don't be Sam from the early 2000s. It was annoying.
I was annoying. Yeah, I totally see that and that analogy totally makes sense that the the typical relationship a lot of these companies have with their customers post purchase is you know, they send these blanket emails and it's just they're just kind of one sided there. They're telling about this and that, you know, some of it may be of interest could be a value but the ultimate thing is, you know, they're really just trying to get them to buy where in your example in your analogy from your Barber Larry, you know, he was really on.
Lee looking out for you. He didn't really you know, he knew you were a loyal customer and he just gave you his opinion, you know as a friend as a barber. He said okay, you know, yeah, let it go you had to let it go and that wasn't coming from a space of you know, being too salesy and anything like that.
It was an honest opinion and so as a business, I think companies really just have to figure out how they can get around being so aggressive and. Going to get the next sale but really just trying to understand their customers and forming that relationship and it's it does take time and it does take some finessing, you know through the different channels social media through their email correspondence.
But yeah, that's I think that is really the main thing so it's not just a one-sided. Messaging scheme where you're sending out that that blanket email and then you know you waiting for response you'd only response and that's that's kind of it and things are kind of drop you and I know this most e-comm marketing email marketing campaigns or PPC right you get a customer and then you spam your entire list three times a week with a coupon, right?
And and that's that's what we call email marketing now and coupons and I'm going to admit something embarrassing here. I didn't actually know Larry's name probably for like. Three months. Oh, wow, because you never talked about himself, right? It was always just you know talking about me talking about me talking about me.
And that's what built that loyalty. I still go back to him. By the way, every time I send so like right now my hair looks kind of looks kind of weird, but I'm going to Boston soon. Okay instead of getting a shave and a haircut here in Palo Alto. I'll wait longer it go back to Boston. Okay, but it's been you know, it's because he spent so much more time talking about me asking questions about me then he would.
Talking about himself, right and it's really getting down to that really helping people make purchase decisions. And you know, you mentioned that it's not easy before we before we hit record you and I were sort of reminiscing about the good old days of e-comm right when it was easy, right like, you know, even just like spamming Google and still he was easy well because there weren't a lot of people doing it and the platform's were very good at stopping us from abusing their services, you know, it was just an easier time now for the people listen the guy.
Nothing easy to offer you. I can assure you that if you put in the work that it's going to be a very profitable long-term growth model, right but all the easy stuff anything that's easy a hundred thousand other people are also doing which makes it by definition less effective. Right that is that is totally true.
And and that that really is the kind of the lesson in that. I think I almost have to throw out my last question because. I always typically ask my guest. You know, what's one quick win that an e-commerce business do what's a quick takeaway? And I think the answer to that is really what you just said it in this, you know in this whole customer retention world.
The really is no quick winners. Nothing quick. You can do its it really just takes time and I think the main thing and I think one maybe take away is really just taking the time to understand your customers just like. Your Barber Larry where he didn't really, you know, you didn't really know his name, you know, he was really more interested in finding about finding out about you.
And so I think companies just need to be a little bit slower to pushing that sale and trying to get that sale and get it being a little bit more quicker to understanding who their customers are so they can build that trust in a relationship and that loyalty and it it just comes with time and it's yeah, it's so it really is nothing quick.
You can just do it. Night, you just have to be mindful. I think of that fact there is a first step that you can so fortunately well fortunately most most Eco and most marketers in the world are still pretty terrible at this one thing if any of you folks use Facebook stop using it for a while and what you'll notice is you start getting these emails from Facebook and it's like hey like this great moment happened with one of your friends you missed it cause you're not on Facebook, right and software companies have a really deep understanding of product usage like.
Is the person actually using the thing you sold them which is not something historically they econ companies spend a lot of time thinking about so if I'm selling quarter-inch drill bits, right the person didn't buy a quarter inch drill bit. They've had a quarter inch hole. They want speed to finish their project etcetera.
Mmm sending that like after somebody purchases instead of spamming them three times a week with a coupon. Finding out whether or not they actually accomplish their goal, right if they didn't, you know, sending them a little ebook or whatever. I'm like, here's how to use quarter-inch drill bits. But then also, you know, I think the big paradigm shift is this is idea that like nobody really wants to hear from your marketing team and your business.
All right, they want to hear from your other customers. It's not my sales and marketing team can beat up your sales and marketing team anymore. Right? You look at you. Look at companies like United they got a great sales and marketing team. But it's my community of engaged customer fans can obliterate your sales and marketing team.
That's true. So that's this other bit of LTV. I think that no one really pays attention to one. Yeah. It's like, how do I get each customer to pay me more and more often the other bit is how do I use the fact that I got you to buy from me to make acquiring my next customer cheaper. So focus on both of those things and that is that is easy to do because no one else is really doing it.
Well right now, So did they actually achieve what they wanted with the product? Because if not, they're not going to buy from you again. If you if you sign up for Facebook and you and you realize that no friends or family that you care about also have Facebook. You wouldn't continue using it because that's the value that I have.
Right? Right, and then also like collect those customer reviews and use that to power your growth. Are you just use. In fact that your customers are happy to acquire more customers. So you're getting your community to fight for your growth instead of your sales marketing, right? And that's that's very important these days and it's because I mean we see it with just looking at Amazon.
I mean reviews go so much further than any type of marketing campaign can because. You know people want to know what other people thought that's always going to be. This is always going to go further. You know, what other what other people say what do people that have gotten their hands on this particular product or this particular service?
What do they think what's their opinion? And you know, most people. Put more of a basis on that as a determining factor of whether or not they're going to you know, pull the trigger then really anything else. So that's that makes a lot of sense. What will Samuel you've definitely provided a whole wealth of information and I know our audience is truly going to appreciate.
One of the things that I've recently started doing I always kind of liked to get a little bit more find out a little bit more about our guests. I kind of have one closing. Fun fact question. What is one thing that our audience would be surprised to know about you may be surprised to already dropped the thing about I was a talk radio show host.
I already I already said that I was a College Dropout something that they'd be surprised to know about me. I think the thing that they would be. Rise to know about me is that everybody thinks that there's this like some magic secret that has led to like career growth and stuff like that besides. It actually comes from from primarily just like self-destruction self-doubt and like humility, right?
It's like I always say you have to adopt this concept of continually Reinventing yourself and always looking out and not looking not building on what you've done in the past as much as looking out for what you can do in the future when I was when I tell that story about the hiring Hall. I think the bit that people don't actually know is I was currently like homeless I was living I was living in the pool house of one of the listeners of my radio show.
Okay while I'm sitting here like running this like hiring me HubSpot campaign and but like that it doesn't that's not what matters right? What matters is that? You do what everybody else does you get what everybody else gets so you have to you have to do something different. So whatever's like, you know, whatever your current challenges your if it's stressing you out.
It's probably because you're evaluating it through the lens of your past experience evaluated through a different lens and you may find that change your perspective. Yo true. Yeah, those are definitely some great words of wisdom and I appreciate you sharing that so that is awesome. So so Sam, yeah, if any of our listeners to the.
Just want to get in touch with you. What's what's the best way to reach you? Sure you can Google anything even close to my last name on the cards and on you should find me. Okay, fortunately everybody else with that last names like an engineer or doctor and they're not very good at SEO. You can also find me on Twitter on LinkedIn.
I answer every message I get and and you can you can check out groov.com as well and you can find my my page there reach out. All right, that sounds awesome. Well, thanks again Sam for joining us today on the e-commerce marketing podcast. Thanks Island.
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Head of marketing at BirdEye.com